RifE 1.20 Download and Changelog

[Vermicious Knid]

I like the Kindred promotions-their so overpowered that I guess they make up for the small exonomic weakness, however I don't like the names Mulcarn's chosen and Efreet. For one thing, efreet are Arab Djinn. How about Hrimbursar (Frost giant) for Mulcarn's Chosen and Eldjotnar (fire giant) for Efreet? Juggernaut could possible be replaced with Bergrisar (mountain Giant), but that dosn't fit quite as well.
Also, if cities can grow above size 8, that help balance the exonomy, since they can get plenty of specialis.

Excellent suggestions. I'll make the name changes.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

I agree with all of these, except Juggernaut. I think that's a fine name,

Also for Stormkin, how about Stormlord instead of Thunder for a promotion name. Thunder really sounds more like a spell in any case.

But some of these do look overpowered. Just like everything you make at first.
Valkrionn has no sense of balance.

I still remember running around with str7 hunters.
Oh, and str16 airships as the mechanos.
And a magic-immune, heals-while-moving War Machine as the doviello.


I'd advise thinking over that Tryggvi a bit. Speaking from experience, 6 first strikes with Gilden Silveric makes you almost invincible. 9 is only going to be moreso, and with ranged str12, that seems to take a lot of focus off the melee line, which doesn't seem to suit jotnar.

Why restrict Troll hunters to Tracking? Animal handling is only 1 tech beyond that, so you wouldn't get to play with them very long, most likely.

Some of the naval things you're doing also seem to encroash on the lanun quite a bit. Why give them seafaring? And better ocean tile yields in general?

In general, a lot of these changes sound fun, most of them sound varying degrees of overpowered, and a few are a bit too much change for my liking.

I always assume the happy medium is somewhere between your taste and my taste in terms of balance. I'm certainly open to playtesting feedback...won't break my heart to dial things back as needed. Hopefully a few of y'all will find the bits that are truly broken for me.

Seafaring does two things for them. It allows them to immediately work water tiles...which is needed because I changed their flavourstart. It also allows Pearls...which isn't a very big deal. They don't have any Domain_Water units, so they never get the +1 move.

The sea buffs are because they have a HUGE disadvantage using water tiles...the reduced city radius. Very hard for them to utilize coastal cities unless you buff their water tile production...and I want them to play like huge Vikings.

Troll hunters are moved up because an auto-acquire effect promo creates an intermediate recon unit at Hunting.

 

[Valkrionn]

I like the Kindred promotions-their so overpowered that I guess they make up for the small exonomic weakness, however I don't like the names Mulcarn's chosen and Efreet. For one thing, efreet are Arab Djinn. How about Hrimbursar (Frost giant) for Mulcarn's Chosen and Eldjotnar (fire giant) for Efreet? Juggernaut could possible be replaced with Bergrisar (mountain Giant), but that dosn't fit quite as well.
Also, if cities can grow above size 8, that help balance the exonomy, since they can get plenty of specialis.

I like those names too.

Keep in mind with the reduced Water/Wind mills and increased food useage it won't be real easy to get that big. But I like that it is possible.

I love the Jontar changes for Mounted/Archery those make good sense.

Well, the thing is that they can try to get more great merchants, and between a few more merchants and the food guilds they should reach size 15 or so without to much difficulty.

Yeah, food will need to be tweaked, they may even end up as high as 3 food per. Just because it's POSSIBLE doesn't mean it should be EASY.

I agree with all of these, except Juggernaut. I think that's a fine name,

Also for Stormkin, how about Stormlord instead of Thunder for a promotion name. Thunder really sounds more like a spell in any case.

I like Stormlord better, too.

But some of these do look overpowered. Just like everything you make at first.
Valkrionn has no sense of balance.

I still remember running around with str7 hunters.
Oh, and str16 airships as the mechanos.
And a magic-immune, heals-while-moving War Machine as the doviello.

Lies and Slander!
Yeah, I tend to overpower things and have to tone them down.... But in this case, I had no part in it yet. I blame Vermicious.

I'd advise thinking over that Tryggvi a bit. Speaking from experience, 6 first strikes with Gilden Silveric makes you almost invincible. 9 is only going to be moreso, and with ranged str12, that seems to take a lot of focus off the melee line, which doesn't seem to suit jotnar.

Hmm... It takes quite a bit of money to get that unit, but yeah, that might be a bit much seeing as you can still get drill.

Why restrict Troll hunters to Tracking? Animal handling is only 1 tech beyond that, so you wouldn't get to play with them very long, most likely.

Some of the naval things you're doing also seem to encroash on the lanun quite a bit. Why give them seafaring? And better ocean tile yields in general?

In general, a lot of these changes sound fun, most of them sound varying degrees of overpowered, and a few are a bit too much change for my liking.

Verm already answered those questions pretty well, I think... With one tier, you need GOOD tiles to make a coastal settlement worthwhile.

 

[WarKirby]

Hmm... It takes quite a bit of money to get that unit, but yeah, that might be a bit much seeing as you can still get drill.

That's BEFORE Drill?

Dear science are you insane

I get 6-7 first strikes on Gilden WITH drill IV.

 

[Valkrionn]

Like I said, not my handiwork yet.

I think that lowering, or even removing, the first strikes from the Archery promotions should be fine. Normal archers don't have more than 2 built in, so forcing Jotnar 'archers' to go for drill is fine imo.

 

[Valkrionn]

1. Hurler:
   • Requires Archery. -2/+2 Combat/Defense. 2 Ranged Strength, 1 range, 15% limit. Bonus to city and hill defense. +1 first strike. Costs 50 gold, requires archery range, available to melee. Changes unitcombat to archer (which is needed for the subsequent promotions)
2. Strong Arm:
   • Requires Bowyers, Fletcher, 50 gold. +2 ranged combat, +15% limit, +1 first strike.
3. Deadeye:
   • Requires Bowyers, Age 100, Bowyer, 50 gold. +2 ranged combat, +15% limit, increases range to 2.
4. Tryggvi.
   • Actual unique unit, upgrades from Wielder. With all the archery promos (it only comes with the first one...but buying the rest is a no-brainer) it is a 10/18, ranged strength 9 (70% limit, range 3), collateral damage, marksman, 2-4 first strikes.

This should work a bit better, I think?

 

[Vermicious Knid]

Yeah, I don't recall giving any units 9 first strikes without promotions...that would be pretty overpowered.

Yeah, looking at it. It gets up to 6-9 after taking all of the archery promos for a total bill of 600+. Easy to adjust that downward as needed though. I honestly mean it to be sorta ridiculous...it is a tier 4 national unit that requires a number of otherwise useless techs.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

1. Hurler:
   • Requires Archery. -2/+2 Combat/Defense. 2 Ranged Strength, 1 range, 15% limit. Bonus to city and hill defense. +1 first strike. Costs 50 gold, requires archery range, available to melee. Changes unitcombat to archer (which is needed for the subsequent promotions)
2. Strong Arm:
   • Requires Bowyers, Fletcher, 50 gold. +2 ranged combat, +15% limit, +1 first strike.
3. Deadeye:
   • Requires Bowyers, Age 100, Bowyer, 50 gold. +2 ranged combat, +15% limit, increases range to 2.
4. Tryggvi.
   • Actual unique unit, upgrades from Wielder. With all the archery promos (it only comes with the first one...but buying the rest is a no-brainer) it is a 10/18, ranged strength 9 (70% limit, range 3), collateral damage, marksman, 2-4 first strikes.

This should work a bit better, I think?

Nerfing the first strikes is probably a better idea than nerfing the ranged attack, if it needs a nerf. They need to be strong enough to justify investing in them.

 

[Valkrionn]

Hmm... Maybe leave ranged strength at 3 per lvl, but drop attack another point for each level?

So +3 Ranged, -1 Attack.

 

[armyofwhispers]

Besides, anything that actually gets close enough to attack them is going to be heavily damaged by the 3 range that they have to shoot at them.

 

[WarKirby]

I think it ought to be able to achieve 100% range damage limit. I believe other T4 archery units can with the Archery Promo line.

But 18 defence strength seems a bit much, on top of those first strikes.

Also, how about making him UNITCOMBAT_SIEGE. Mainly so that Cover doesn't affect him. Presumably he'd be tossing things large enough that any tree you hide behind would be crushed,

 

[Vermicious Knid]

I think it ought to be able to achieve 100% range damage limit. I believe other T4 archery units can with the Archery Promo line.

But 18 defence strength seems a bit much, on top of those first strikes.

Also, how about making him UNITCOMBAT_SIEGE. Mainly so that Cover doesn't affect him. Presumably he'd be tossing things large enough that any tree you hide behind would be crushed,

Well....UNITCOMBAT_SIEGE would be interesting. I've avoided it because I blocked siege workshop/master siegesmith and i didn't want to rework a bunch of promotions.

I think he can achieve 100% if he takes all the basic archery promos. I'll make sure he can in the final product.

18 is high...but a crossbowman has 13. Bearing in mind that a Tryggvi can't benefit from defensive bonuses, the crossbowman is actually tougher to root out.

I'd like to see some playtest feedback before making any drastic changes, but I can see...

1. Reducing first strikes to whatever level we decide is reasonable, OR
2. Decreasing defensive strength and allowing defensive bonuses, OR
3. Making the unit more expensive.


EDIT: Too bad a unit can't have two unitcombats. Archery/Siege would be perfect here.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

And another thought...I coudl rework the whole "Archery line" as the "Siege line". That might actually be better...I'll give that a quick look tonight.

 

[WarKirby]

I think option 2 is good. Allowing defensive bonuses would make him unique among the jotnar,

 

[Breez]

And another thought...I coudl rework the whole "Archery line" as the "Siege line". That might actually be better...I'll give that a quick look tonight.

In light of we are talking Giants throwing boulders that makes the most sense to me.

 

[Vermicious Knid]

In light of we are talking Giants throwing boulders that makes the most sense to me.

The promotions make more sense as well, particularly Valk's nasty ammo promos.

 

[Valkrionn]

I like the siege idea there too...

 

[far_wanderer]

A few minor points:
1 - Do Titan's still get Blood of the Phoenix, or have you made them actually immortal?
2 - From my previous experience with Goliath, remember that the Siege unitcombat has a lot of other baggage attached to it - like not being able to pick up equipment or explore lairs, for starters.
3 - The effect promotion for Wild Trolls at Hunting could use a boost. Unless you changed something else that I'm not seeing, that puts them at equal to normal hunters but much more expensive, harder to replace, and with the added penalty of Estranged. Especially with the addition of an early melee unit, that will make the recon line a lot less attractive.
4 - For militia, one way to do it would be to give them a chance to revolt if no giants are in their square.
5 - Hope was pretty key, and I notice you've removed both Spirit mana from their palace and the spell from Divine units. Any particular reason for the sudden prevalence of Mind instead? It seems like a strange switch, especially if you want them to be more Viking-like.
6 - Does Artisan stack with itself?
7 - Kindred promotions are mutually exclusive, right?

 

[Vermicious Knid]

A few minor points:
1 - Do Titan's still get Blood of the Phoenix, or have you made them actually immortal?
2 - From my previous experience with Goliath, remember that the Siege unitcombat has a lot of other baggage attached to it - like not being able to pick up equipment or explore lairs, for starters.
3 - The effect promotion for Wild Trolls at Hunting could use a boost. Unless you changed something else that I'm not seeing, that puts them at equal to normal hunters but much more expensive, harder to replace, and with the added penalty of Estranged. Especially with the addition of an early melee unit, that will make the recon line a lot less attractive.
4 - For militia, one way to do it would be to give them a chance to revolt if no giants are in their square.
5 - Hope was pretty key, and I notice you've removed both Spirit mana from their palace and the spell from Divine units. Any particular reason for the sudden prevalence of Mind instead? It seems like a strange switch, especially if you want them to be more Viking-like.
6 - Does Artisan stack with itself?
7 - Kindred promotions are mutually exclusive, right?

Good questions all.

1. Actually Immortal
2. Yeah, I'm aware of the problems here. Not happy about it...but Siege is looking like the best of two imperfect options. I actually switched it from promotion-based upgrades to a more traditional format, reblocked the archery line. Bowyers and Fletchers were pretty silly anyway.
3. They get +1 move, + 1 power, and can benefit from defensive bonuses. The estranged isn't a huge issue...seakin and woodkin both overwrite it. Spamming wild trolls is a bad idea (except for Uxol), but having a few upgraded ones is very useful for all the leaders.
4. I'll look into that.
5. The Jotnar economy is dependent on acquiring and controlling large numbers of slaves. Mind helps with that. They aren't "heroic idiot in a horned hat" sorta Vikings.
6. Artisan stacks. If you have 5 eligible Jots sitting in a city that is +10 hammers. Of course, it is "must maintain"...so they lose the promo if they move.
7. Yes, absolutely. Jot adults start with an effect promo(two, actually) that is overwritten when a Kindred or Allegiance promo is selected.

 

[Hawkwood]

Have you included Vermicious Knid's Chariot changes? Because it's not mentioned in the changelog.