Yeah, setting a unit's strength equal to the AC would be a one turn at a time, just that unit deal. As for OO, I'm just trying to brainstorm 'chaos.' In keeping with the Order, maybe it could force war between a random two players? That would need a really long cooldown, though.
RifE 1.20 Ideas, Requests, and Feedback
- Thread starter Valkrionn
- Start date
apparently I need to learn to read >.>
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
For OO, it should be something that is a manifestation of the Ocean as well as Chaos...
Hmm. How about this for a general setup?
Early religions (OO, RoK, FoL) have their Patriarch become an Avatar. Some manifestation of the god's power; Mithril Golem could become the RoK avatar, even, though I'd prefer it not to be.
Mid religions (Order, AV) gain a powerful priest, with a strong ability... In the case of Order, the standard patriarch.
High religions (Empy, Esus) I have no idea on.
White Hand and Airandamar could fit in either of the first two, they're both a sort of middle ground in cost.
So, in keeping with that... OO would gain an avatar of some kind, a physical representation of one of the overlords. Could either A)Allow the player to choose which one (just make a few different versions... Strength, Defense, Mobility, Magic, Ranged) or B)Have it change randomly.
I'd be in favor of B.
Hmm. How about this for a general setup?
Early religions (OO, RoK, FoL) have their Patriarch become an Avatar. Some manifestation of the god's power; Mithril Golem could become the RoK avatar, even, though I'd prefer it not to be.
Mid religions (Order, AV) gain a powerful priest, with a strong ability... In the case of Order, the standard patriarch.
High religions (Empy, Esus) I have no idea on.
White Hand and Airandamar could fit in either of the first two, they're both a sort of middle ground in cost.
So, in keeping with that... OO would gain an avatar of some kind, a physical representation of one of the overlords. Could either A)Allow the player to choose which one (just make a few different versions... Strength, Defense, Mobility, Magic, Ranged) or B)Have it change randomly.
I'd be in favor of B.
hmm...for OO((octopus Overlords)) it should also represent its cthuhlu roots, something that has to do with madness and such...mebbe an overlord of some type, or nyarlathotep, who in Lovecraft, was the most powerful of the outer gods, and was a link between the cults, and their alien gods...
for fellowship of the leaves, why not something pulled out of the storyline? a powerful god or angel that represents the forests...?
for empyrean, they care for the sun and such, as well as justice...they should be allowed something that represents their ways...
also...in the storyline, theres a powerful blight that is killing the elven forests, which thessa stops by killing her betrothed...perhaps that can be represented somewhere...a forest killing power or somesuch...as well as a forest growing power...
for fellowship of the leaves, why not something pulled out of the storyline? a powerful god or angel that represents the forests...?
for empyrean, they care for the sun and such, as well as justice...they should be allowed something that represents their ways...
also...in the storyline, theres a powerful blight that is killing the elven forests, which thessa stops by killing her betrothed...perhaps that can be represented somewhere...a forest killing power or somesuch...as well as a forest growing power...
Divvu
Warlord
Actually he's a servant to all the other gods...
If he were free tough, that could be true. Big N could never compete to the sheer, mindless, nuclear power of Azathot, but the capability of free tought is something that should be considered.
(Power without control is... Deadly!)
Edit: As it stands, the most powerful (if with powerful we intend the potential to "obtain" something) outer god should Be Yog-Sothoth
That said, I would like to make a question. Just a random tought and totally unrelated to anything that was discussed. I would like to know, how hard would it be to implement a new game option? I had this idea today, after a long, drawn game as the Ljos.
You all know the "Just one more turn" option you get when you win.
Now, since we already have an "high to low" option, would it be possible to allow a civilization change in the endgame? Sometimes I would like to try myself against the superpowers I have created
Just random toughts, feel free to ignore!
In my current (and first RiFE) game as the D'Tesh, I noticed that surviving the early game is rather tough.
I had a minotaur with promotions and Orthos rock up to my second city and annihilate it. The warriors only have strength 2. Totally inadequate for defence.
So either
a) I suck at D'Tesh (yep), or
b) D'Tesh need some sort of defensive boost to survive Orthos and friends.
If a), what is the strategy for early game D'Tesh to increase their survivability ?
I had a minotaur with promotions and Orthos rock up to my second city and annihilate it. The warriors only have strength 2. Totally inadequate for defence.
So either
a) I suck at D'Tesh (yep), or
b) D'Tesh need some sort of defensive boost to survive Orthos and friends.
If a), what is the strategy for early game D'Tesh to increase their survivability ?
Divvu
Warlord
D'tesh are going to get a major overhaul in next versions. The problems you are referring to (weak early game) are known.
Could I suggest you to try another civ while we wait for 1.3
?If you want some undead-flavour you could try Scions of Patria, very unique civ, and already full shaped (altough I don't know if and how much they will change in the future
I think they are quite stable as it is)OMg these ideas are so cool, I can't believe I started this.
Avatar concept is very good, since all these religions are somehow "nature-themed" it suits well the idea of somehow bringing a piece of your faith into the material world.
FoL could have a mid-strenght but uber-versatile Patriarch that gains various bonuses and promotions on terrain? It is a religion open to much intepretation, and getting a treant/treehugging patriarch while playing Lanun or Malakim would be near useless.
Making the Mithril Golem RoK's Avatar is... interesting. Does it mean that the high priest somehow "converts" himself to a golem, piece by piece? Or that it dies, and his soul passes into the statue?
OO, let's see... chaos, madness, water... something like an island-swallowing monster? The Leviathan itself? They already have an arcane unit, and quite strong, so I'm stumped. Perhaps making the Leviathan OO's second hero, and making the high priest upgrade to a Hemah-like, divine/arcane hybrid?
Hell Terrain ususally spreads from the AV holy city, right? How about making it spread from the patriarch, or making him auto-terraforms tiles into hell terrain?
----
On a completely different matter: is Iron supposed to be that rare? I found it to be scarcer than Mithril.
isthmus
Warlord
Sooo.. I have some ideas too
I think having tiers of these superunits would also help to balance the 'tiers' of relgions as well, especially since they tend to be 'bottom heavy' at the moment.
1st tier: I was thinking that these religions should just get quite strong priests, with unique niches. Maybe with a special ability but nothing crazy (apart from OO, they're always crazy).
*FoL - A strong druid/priest hybrid. Comes with the animal capture promos and is authorised to gain the benefits the *new* animal related changes. Effectively a fusion of the two tech trees FoL priests can go down.
*RoK - Don't care much for the mithril golem being the patriarch. I was thinking a prospector or runelord. Has access to some buffing abilities to all melee units, can transmute resources, and a spell that temporarily provides a building in a city that boosts production and maybe has free engineers. Can also fight himself but that's not the idea behind this one.
*OO - I think that this one should be a high priest who carts around with him a powerful dreamer or host of a powerful overlord. Is an arcane/priest hybrid and has a set of unique spells that could cause temporary enraged (in both friends and foes? not sure yet. I suppose if you have law mana then you can prepare for it), direct damage, summon drowns/stygs, obviously tsunami, possible a stack-wide water walking?
2nd tier: These guys should be powerful in direct strength, as well as having a powerful ability. Expect these guys on the front lines. Should also get the hero promotion as a bonus.
*Order - Pretty standard global war caller, but also pretty damn strong. Big demon basher. I'd like to see him have some kind of inspiration effect on nearby friendly units and maybe a holy fire spell (holy version of empyrean crown of brilliance) as well. Expect this guy on the front lines.
*AV - I'm very much up for the ascension idea. Why harness the demonic powers when you could become one yourself? Carries the perks (spells, strength etc) that come with demonhood, but also the cons (the order patriarch will hunt you down and melt you) Would be good to have a hell terrain spread spell and obviously he'd have stigmata to make it worth his while.
3rd tier: Keeping with the current theme of empy having the god-like chalid, the patriarch should be on a similar level for these guys.
*Esus: So a super-shadow, upgrades to the patriarch from the standard shadow. Can teleport, escape, spreads esus religion to your recon units. Also, he's immortal. Reason for this could either be he's very very sneaky, every time he's caught it turns out to be a decoy, or that he's so sneaky he finds his way out of hell in no time every time. Would it be possibly for him to ignore guardsmen promotion too? Comes with all the esus recon promotions and can bribe non-loyal units on the same tile (he'll be hidden and so can do that)
*Empy: Should really be chalid can't actually think of anyone that isn't a chalid clone basically...
I think having tiers of these superunits would also help to balance the 'tiers' of relgions as well, especially since they tend to be 'bottom heavy' at the moment.
1st tier: I was thinking that these religions should just get quite strong priests, with unique niches. Maybe with a special ability but nothing crazy (apart from OO, they're always crazy).
*FoL - A strong druid/priest hybrid. Comes with the animal capture promos and is authorised to gain the benefits the *new* animal related changes. Effectively a fusion of the two tech trees FoL priests can go down.
*RoK - Don't care much for the mithril golem being the patriarch. I was thinking a prospector or runelord. Has access to some buffing abilities to all melee units, can transmute resources, and a spell that temporarily provides a building in a city that boosts production and maybe has free engineers. Can also fight himself but that's not the idea behind this one.
*OO - I think that this one should be a high priest who carts around with him a powerful dreamer or host of a powerful overlord. Is an arcane/priest hybrid and has a set of unique spells that could cause temporary enraged (in both friends and foes? not sure yet. I suppose if you have law mana then you can prepare for it), direct damage, summon drowns/stygs, obviously tsunami, possible a stack-wide water walking?
2nd tier: These guys should be powerful in direct strength, as well as having a powerful ability. Expect these guys on the front lines. Should also get the hero promotion as a bonus.
*Order - Pretty standard global war caller, but also pretty damn strong. Big demon basher. I'd like to see him have some kind of inspiration effect on nearby friendly units and maybe a holy fire spell (holy version of empyrean crown of brilliance) as well. Expect this guy on the front lines.
*AV - I'm very much up for the ascension idea. Why harness the demonic powers when you could become one yourself? Carries the perks (spells, strength etc) that come with demonhood, but also the cons (the order patriarch will hunt you down and melt you
) Would be good to have a hell terrain spread spell and obviously he'd have stigmata to make it worth his while.3rd tier: Keeping with the current theme of empy having the god-like chalid, the patriarch should be on a similar level for these guys.
*Esus: So a super-shadow, upgrades to the patriarch from the standard shadow. Can teleport, escape, spreads esus religion to your recon units. Also, he's immortal. Reason for this could either be he's very very sneaky, every time he's caught it turns out to be a decoy, or that he's so sneaky he finds his way out of hell in no time every time. Would it be possibly for him to ignore guardsmen promotion too? Comes with all the esus recon promotions and can bribe non-loyal units on the same tile (he'll be hidden and so can do that)
*Empy: Should really be chalid
can't actually think of anyone that isn't a chalid clone basically...
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
OMg these ideas are so cool, I can't believe I started this.
Avatar concept is very good, since all these religions are somehow "nature-themed" it suits well the idea of somehow bringing a piece of your faith into the material world.
FoL could have a mid-strenght but uber-versatile Patriarch that gains various bonuses and promotions on terrain? It is a religion open to much intepretation, and getting a treant/treehugging patriarch while playing Lanun or Malakim would be near useless.
Making the Mithril Golem RoK's Avatar is... interesting. Does it mean that the high priest somehow "converts" himself to a golem, piece by piece? Or that it dies, and his soul passes into the statue?
OO, let's see... chaos, madness, water... something like an island-swallowing monster? The Leviathan itself? They already have an arcane unit, and quite strong, so I'm stumped. Perhaps making the Leviathan OO's second hero, and making the high priest upgrade to a Hemah-like, divine/arcane hybrid?
Hell Terrain ususally spreads from the AV holy city, right? How about making it spread from the patriarch, or making him auto-terraforms tiles into hell terrain?
----
On a completely different matter: is Iron supposed to be that rare? I found it to be scarcer than Mithril.
FoL avatar would be based on terrain, definitely. Bezeri are meant to go FoL, Lanun have either OO or FoL (Kelp Forests ftw), so it would have to be open to coastal/aquatic civs.
BUT I think Isthmus has some good ideas below...
Sooo.. I have some ideas too
I think having tiers of these superunits would also help to balance the 'tiers' of relgions as well, especially since they tend to be 'bottom heavy' at the moment.
That is a very good point. I still like the idea of an avatar for some, but I suppose we can make that more... special? The only one I really want to use it for is FoL, honestly, as like I said, needs to be useful for all FoL civs. Which are: Elves, Doviello, Bezeri. So standard terrain, tundra, and ocean. Quite diverse.
How about this for FoL?
- High Priests are able to gain the new animal promotions.
- The Patriarch is an Avatar, gains strength based on the terrain/features, and abilities based on terrain. Total strength should be no more than 15.
- I simply want the changing abilities/strength, which don't work nicely with just a priest; Would need waterwalking, don't want to do that.
Your OO idea is good as well.
2nd tier: These guys should be powerful in direct strength, as well as having a powerful ability. Expect these guys on the front lines. Should also get the hero promotion as a bonus.
*Order - Pretty standard global war caller, but also pretty damn strong. Big demon basher. I'd like to see him have some kind of inspiration effect on nearby friendly units and maybe a holy fire spell (holy version of empyrean crown of brilliance) as well. Expect this guy on the front lines.
*AV - I'm very much up for the ascension idea. Why harness the demonic powers when you could become one yourself? Carries the perks (spells, strength etc) that come with demonhood, but also the cons (the order patriarch will hunt you down and melt you
Order - Definitely.
AV - Yes. Becomes a Demon Lord, can spread hell, stigmata, etc.
3rd tier: Keeping with the current theme of empy having the god-like chalid, the patriarch should be on a similar level for these guys.
*Esus: So a super-shadow, upgrades to the patriarch from the standard shadow. Can teleport, escape, spreads esus religion to your recon units. Also, he's immortal. Reason for this could either be he's very very sneaky, every time he's caught it turns out to be a decoy, or that he's so sneaky he finds his way out of hell in no time every time. Would it be possibly for him to ignore guardsmen promotion too? Comes with all the esus recon promotions and can bribe non-loyal units on the same tile (he'll be hidden and so can do that)
*Empy: Should really be chalid
Esus - I like that idea. Should give it some very nice power, making up for the lack it currently has.
Empy - I wouldn't be opposed to using a (slightly buffed; Regains Pillar of Fire?) Chalid as the patriarch. But to do that, we need a new hero.
Also, what do you think for White Hand? Airandamar, of course, has no info posted yet, so won't ask about that one. It also likely won't be in 1.3... Will be in 1.4, as I'll do that while the others are implementing some of the new leaders.
what about a life elemental or mebbe a personification of nature itself as a FoL avatar?
something that has different abilities depending on which terrain it was on...?
like...higher defense on tundra, higher attack on normal, higher speed on water, ignores movement costs on forests and kelp and such, and can mebbe cross mountains?
a little powerful, yes, but its abilities change depending on which square its on, so, they wont all be there at once.
something that has different abilities depending on which terrain it was on...?
like...higher defense on tundra, higher attack on normal, higher speed on water, ignores movement costs on forests and kelp and such, and can mebbe cross mountains?
a little powerful, yes, but its abilities change depending on which square its on, so, they wont all be there at once.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
That's exactly what I had in mind (the nature itself, one). It's standard art would be that of a treeant... But it would change if in jungle/coast.
isthmus
Warlord
I think that sounds pretty good. I think that druids should actually be able to gain the animal promotions as well, if this doesn't unbalance them.
For the patriarch, probably some nature sphere spirit or archangel would work. I'd prefer the spirit ascension since the archangels are pretty much set. Obviously nature caters for most of the features around erebus and this could fit with whatever environment (or civ that uses that environment) is around. The priest could be so in tune with nature that they become one with it - beyond a druid. I'd probably actually change the patriarch ascension for FoL to be from a druid, not a high priest. Seems odd for them to go down the theology route when commune with nature suits them better, in terms of the location of their heroes and general theme. Unfortunely alignment might stop this, but maybe like the cualli hero the first priest capable of upgrading becomes the hero/patriarch, who will have no alignment condition. Don't know how easy/possible this is though.
I honestly can't think of anyone that better embodies empy in terms of strength than Chalid. Maybe the patriarch could focus on the enlightenment and equality part of empy, not the power of the sun bit?Esus - I like that idea. Should give it some very nice power, making up for the lack it currently has.
Empy - I wouldn't be opposed to using a (slightly buffed; Regains Pillar of Fire?) Chalid as the patriarch. But to do that, we need a new hero.
Also needs to be powerful though, I think the late religions need to have a definite advantage. Possibly a chief member of the overcouncil? Would provide major economic benefits. Chalid is the muscle and the patriarch is the brains, put very simply.
Sorry completely forgot about the white hand - obviously I'll leave Airandamar out of this so far - but I assume that they're middle-ish tier? You posted a list of the relgion tiers in terms of when they arrive at some point and I think they were grouped together somewhere in the middle.Also, what do you think for White Hand? Airandamar, of course, has no info posted yet, so won't ask about that one. It also likely won't be in 1.3... Will be in 1.4, as I'll do that while the others are implementing some of the new leaders.
With the white hand it's hard to pick a patriarch - auric is obviously the main focus of this religion in the time period we're interested in, but adding a patriarch for the illians is a bit much considering that it's a illian dominated religion. I'd propose a patriarch that other civs can build (similar to how boris for the ordo is done now). Illians already have auric and the priest trio. Something that counterbalances the fact that they've given up much of their tile yield. I'd link a certain new mechanic that has been showcased in the testers forum to the patriarch of the religion. When he's built, you gain tile yields on ice/tundra/glacier similar to that of the illians.
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
Allowing both High Priests and Druids to upgrade to it would work; Would just have to make sure that it only upgrades if you are following FoL.
But yes, that's the basic idea I have. Some kind of embodiment of the sphere... Hell, could even become the archangel, as I don't think Cernunnos has one now that he controls the sphere. Would need input on that from someone more knowledgeable... But if any of the gods would allow a human to ascend to archangel status, it would be the one who himself ascended.
That could work... Kind of a counter to the Order patriarch.
Provides empire benefits, diplomatic bonuses, etc.
Yes; Both White Hand and Airandamar will come in between the low tier (FoL) religions, and the mid tier (Order) religions. It's actually why Hunting is being dropped in cost a bit... Want FoL to cost the same as RoK and OO.
A patriarch that cannot be used by the Illians or Frozen... Hmm. Not sure how I feel about that, honestly.
PM me what mechanic you have in mind? There are several, so I have no idea what you mean.
isthmus
Warlord
Ideally - although the overcouncil is pretty underpowered at the mo....
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
Possible; If so, I'd likely remove the vote from Chalid. Don't need to be able to accumulate THAT many extra votes.
At the moment yes... This is going to change soon though
I'm not too keen on removing the Chalid vote however, since as I recall, Chalid is a councilor, just a rather zealous one. We could make them mutually exclusive: You can't have Chalid AND the Patriarch, or would that be too odd?
Valkrionn
The Hamster King
I wouldn't want to block both, personally. But at the same time, I don't want the Malakim to be able to gain +3 votes.
I wouldn't want to block both, personally. But at the same time, I don't want the Malakim to be able to gain +3 votes.
Well, +4 if you count that one hero from DIAL.
I don't think the lore specifically mentions Chalid being at a council meeting though, so it would be fairly easy to rectify that. It would also make him more of the Empyrean Hero whereas the Patriarch becomes the Overcouncil hero. Alternatively, we could make it so that whichever is built first gains the Councilor status and the +1 vote. Just food for thought, really.
