Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

[pinktilapia]

Well spotted Gaias. :suicide:
I updated my BIQs again.
For the record: Hannibal Dux need to have its resource requirement (Carthago Nova in city radius) removed..

Should I post updated BIQs regularly, or better wait you have gone through the bug hunt first?

 

[Aion]

*-Aion, where are you?

I'm at Castra Regina. Well, I don't know if I should feel comfortable being put to Bavaria Though I would be pretty useless if I were at my proper location (somewhere near Gutones). Maybe I should be placed in Alemannia Superior, because that's approximately where I will live from October onwards. Anyway, I can't await fighting against myself

TheMonarch was quite easy to spot, BTW.

The new terrain does look cool, though the tropical palms in North Africa are a bit unrealistic.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

Damnit!! To start over from a good game, just to test Hannibal, or not? That is the question...

POST YOUR UPDATES IN THE FORUM PLEASE - So you mentioned a LOAD flag, do you mean the Cohortes Imperatorae should not have LOAD flag checked? I thought you were giving us better armies? I dont see any load thingie mentioned in Cohortes Urbane... Did you intend for the Cohortes Praetorae to be able to JOIN the city?

I guess I'm starting over since I have impulsively overwritten my saved files

*ALERT ALERT! - Hannibal wonder also DOES NOT have Delubrum Beli in Alpes Cottae, a required improvement.. So I took off all requiredments (Except forbidden advance) because its prebuilt... correct? I'm going to test this sucka... he better intimidate or I'm coming after you!

 

[blitzkrieg80]

I'm jealous Ciceronian has better unit graphics I'm a bowman, in a Germanic warband!? You're saying I'm either poor or weak/cowardly or both!!

 

[the_Monarch]

I'm jealous Ciceronian has better unit graphics I'm a bowman, in a Germanic warband!? You're saying I'm either poor or weak/cowardly or both!!

Back for a few minutes from my tormenting work just to see so many news .
At least you've got better stats than Ciceronian, Blitz . So how many of us are we? Who gets the prize for spoting us all?

I'll be away for the next week but still I think 5 def is a bit too much. I mean true, hoplites are supposed to be better than barbs but how about no more extra hp? And the Phalanx stats should be 6 att, 5 def and just 3 bonus hp but a lot more expensive than the legio. That's my 2 pence worth. Back to work, toiling on the fields like a servus .

 

[blitzkrieg80]

Is there any way to make it so Carthage doesnt so willingly give away the Alps Cottae? I took 1 city in Sicily and Carthage would give me that city, but no other =oP Needless to say- I DID NOT take it!! Since I started over to see and meet Hannibal... btw, for those of you who think it is unnecessary to have the pain of Hannibal in your side... THAT is definitely an alternative solution

 

[captain beaver]

It happened in my game too. I think maybe a great wonder preplaced in that city giving 2 culture and resistance to propaganda(so it doesn't culture flip to Gallia) should add to its worth in the eyes of Cartage.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

The Samnites still were NON existant, therefore, they MUST NOT require support!! Magna Graeca seems to disband them when they require support and they are NO THREAT WHATSOEVER every game I play


YES! Hannibal Airdrops as planned when the wonder does not have requirements... I declared war on Carthage pre 230BC and when it hit spawning time, the big baby boy popped out! THANKS GAIUS... I also replayed my save 6 turns or so before to see if/how he would do it again and he seems to act strategically enough!! Wahoo!!

PS- oh my god, Hannibal is a monster- that is soooooooo fanatastic... he should do his spirit proud

 

[Gaias]

Actually that is pretty cool blitzkrieg80, though it would seem you are in a bit of a pickle.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

So far, the Hannibal unit seems to hold up and not go overkill... I kept Milan with losses on defense, but I did not attack and (stupid AI!) he went back to his camp to heal...

Pink, it is YOU who is sadistic... What were you thinking with 4 Tribus Celtica Magnus units in 1 place (5 even in Gergovia besides OTHER units and Vercingetorix) with their 5 defense, but more importantly 5 hp bonus?! I have to reload so much I am thinking of quiting the game, it's ridiculous... I looked at the bic and I see tons of Gallic and Iberian towns with 4 Tribus Celtica Magnus units in each city... 2 is hard... 4 is just mean *-This is considering the lowsy 7 attack for an ELITE legion which does 1 dmg, maybe 2 on average against the Tribus Celtica Magna... I ALMOST FORGOT!! They get to bombard too!? every time it defends another of it's buddies... unbelievably impossible...

Also, are Ports suppose to be easy to destroy, like with 1 hit from 1 ship, over and over, everywhere? It's ridiculous how often Ports and Munitio Litoralus are destroyed after taking quite a while to build... and Carthage isn't even using many ships to do this.

PS - the Imperium Scipionis wonder civpedia entry needs to be changed from every 15 turns to every 10 turns

 

[the_Monarch]

So you see, what I ment by giving too much power to barbs/hoplites/phalanx! Besides, I consider it's lousy to have to reload all the time. Rome would never have fallen that way! Things are falling out of hand, if you ask me. The game should allow for a good player (like blitz ) to win it on hard without ever or just rarely reloading. Besides, as I've said, my fears are these changes make the life difficult for the republic, not the late empire which is not so good... Back to my gold diggin'...

 

[Traianus]

So you see, what I ment by giving too much power to barbs/hoplites/phalanx! Besides, I consider it's lousy to have to reload all the time. Rome would never have fallen that way! Things are falling out of hand, if you ask me. The game should allow for a good player (like blitz ) to win it on hard without ever or just rarely reloading. Besides, as I've said, my fears are these changes make the life difficult for the republic, not the late empire which is not so good... Back to my gold diggin'...

I've always agreed with this line of thinking. New players will not have a chance if a seasoned Roman vet. like Blitz is in trouble! The SG has been easy(though not that easy) because it has been played by a bunch of RFRE nuts who, in some cases, have played every incarnation of the mod. I myself played RFRE through to the high AD's 4 times previously and I haven't d/loaded 1.2 because I know it will result in failure once again. (that, plus the fact that I already incinerated my d/load limit this month! )

 

[blitzkrieg80]

Is the purpose of Hasdrubal Dux just to give wonder effects such as reducing corruption and 900% defense to Carthago Nova? It doesnt spawn any units currently- NOT THAT IT NEEDS TO... I was just wondering because the civopedia says it makes a Hannibal ( I see the intended Hasdrubal unit in the editor now) <---- I see no point for having the Hasdrubal Dux by the way, other than to purposely lag the player behind on the conquest timeline... currently, I'm in Spain, but I can't conquer all of it, until 200BC, leaving me with forces that have to move somewhere else, leaving Carthago Nova to attack while I'm gone... or do NOTHING until 200BC which I know from experience will make me WAY behind on the historical timeline...

*Hannibal sighting (update)- Massilia mysteriously became Carthaginian, so i sent units to scout and YES, t'was Hannibal that made it happen... He is currently residing there... No action in Italy, but I did bring the Greeks into the fight for that reason =oP I don't know how I'm ever going to kill that sucker... I have forces waiting to kill him, but it appears after a long wait I have to attack him on defense?!!? with 30 and fortified in a city??
*** Hannibal DOES NOT HAVE BLITZ and that is the KEY flaw in why he cant take / does not attempt to take my cities

UPDATE - I have killed Hannibal!! I killed him outside Tarraco after he took Narbo and I chased him there with my large army... He was on a hill and it took MANY RELOADS (making sure my 6 ballista hit for sure), but I did it without losing a Consular Legion, but DID lose 5-6 Veteran Legio, 3 Miles Socius and around 12 Velites... In my opinion Hannibal would be perfect with the Blitz ability added to him, but someone will need to test it

*OK, AMMENDATION- If we choose to keep the Hasdrubal wonder and unit, which would be cool merely for the sake of history, he should only have 6 defense, instead of the ridicilous 20 he currently has. 10 hitpoints is devasting at low defense (as seen in only 5Def./5HP in Tribus Magnus)... 10/20 would be another Hannibal which would REALLY delay the player beyond any feasible necessity

GREAT JOB recreating Hannible Pink!! Also to whoever's idea it was to have him spawn in the Alps!

PS - Sorry I keep rambling on people, but I want to say that I REALLY like how the Portus Ostae is easier to build now with only 2 Navalia required instead of 5, much more reasonable... I only wish I knew that before I disregarded conquering Illyria (for the timber/navalia) since I assumed I would need more than 2

 

[primordial stew]

UPDATE - I have killed Hannibal!! I killed him outside Tarraco after he took Narbo and I chased him there with my large army... He was on a hill and it took MANY RELOADS (making sure my 6 ballista hit for sure), but I did it without losing a Consular Legion, but DID lose 5-6 Veteran Legio, 3 Miles Socius and around 12 Velites... In my opinion Hannibal would be perfect with the Blitz ability added to him, but someone will need to test it

That sounds great! Now all we need is the rest of Carthage to be reasonable to conquer and this part will finally be done!

Scipio conquered Carthage's holdings in Hispania in 5 years (211-206BC) while Hannibal was roaming Italy. Happily for him Hasdrubal had left for Italy to help his brother. Hasdrubal's army was ~1/2 the size of Hannibal's, and was defeated in the Battle of Metaurus (207BC) without too much trouble. And finally Scipio defeated Hanniabal in the Battle of Zama (near Utica) in 204BC to end the 2nd Punic War.

How can this be done in the game?

IMHO Hispania should be weak. Hasdrubal should look impressive, but he certainly was not his brother. So he should have a good number of points to reflect his numbers, but the A/D should be kind of low. Mago and Gisgo can either be some spawned allied troops, but not too many, or some weak army. Scipio didn't get a lot of support from Rome since they were pretty busy in Italy, so waves and waves of troops doesn't make any sense.

All city fortifications in Hispania should be removed, there simply isn't either time or troops to deal with them.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

I cannot help but COMPLETELY agree with Primordial Stew... Why should the player have to lag behind so badly?

Why is Numidia allowed to have TONS of stacks of doom (I count 16 Horsemen in one) who can blitz with 3 movement over any terrain? Shouldn't Numidia be weak... Carthage has been using WAY too many Numidian Horsemen as well... why? SPAWNING every 4 turns! There goes my frickin' game... it's 180 BC and I still have half of North African Carthage to conquer and now Numidia wants to use the ridiculous amount of troops its been spawning... I thought I had a good game going, but I guess it's just another weekend down the drain... This is very disheartening

ALSO - WHY can't I ask Numidia to go into a military alliance against Carthage... not only is this so VERY unhistorical, considering the size of their army, it's just mean and unfair

ONE MORE THING - The Portus Migraere should be available A LOT sooner... how can Rome conquer even part of Asia Minor by Caesar's time, if my troops are just finishing up in Africa around 180BC, then I have to get them to Iberia, Macedonia, Greece, ect... PREPLACED and SPAWNING LESS sounds best... its not like it makes the game any less fun... just plausable

 

[captain beaver]

Hum.... So everyone agrees the rules change of version 1.2 suck. We should probably start back at version 1.1 and keep some change (such as Hannibal in the Alps , but weaker?) and undo some (such as Tribus barbarus magnus with 5 def and 5 hp bonus).

 

[the_Monarch]

Partly, I subscribe to this. Those changes listed proir to the update, including adding new units like Cimbri and Teutons are great. But maibe the hoplites should have def 5 and less hp (no bonus, just plain 3). They were elite troops but very few in numbers by this time.

That sounds great! Now all we need is the rest of Carthage to be reasonable to conquer and this part will finally be done!

Well yeah, the losses are just about accurate . But the huge number of reloads.... And the Numidian horsemen are indeed very good. 8 att, blitz, 3 moves, I had quite a headache dealing with them in the SG withut losing a city. Luring was the only way. And they were just 5 of them. So I guess the only good testplay would be one with not so many reloads.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

My vote for measures to be taken (my whining/rambling aside):

1 - only 2 max Tribus Magnus and/or Praesidium Magnum preplaced in cities: Emerita Augusta, Asturia Augusta, Numantia, Lucus Augusti, Tolosa, Burgidala, Vienna, Gergovia, Lugdunum, Argentoratum, Augusta Treverorum, Mediolanum, Sarmizetusa, Siga, Lambaesis, Thelepta, Ancyra, Dorylaeum, Melitene, Alexandria, Sinope, Chersonesus, Ctesiphon, Bassora, Ninive- all therefore need to lose their excessive Tribus Magnus/Praesidium Magnum units... I have purposely left out the Gothic cities, since they should be a lot harder to take (later game conflict) or need to survive longer.... This is all because the player needs to have momentum to stay correctly on the historical/winning path... If the player loses too many guys and/or bogs down, then the game might as well be over, since there are so many threats
2 - Castra Numidicus (Carthage/Numidia) unit spawn changed from 1 per 4 turns to 1 per 8 turns... The unit spam is unacceptable, in my opinion... the Wonder NEVER expires... come on, now
3 - Carthage's Spanish holdings should be reduced to 2 def. Praesidium units per city and nothing else (BUT would that allow Iberia to take them over?) I don't know about this one, should it have more? I think the 2 super units Carthage will spawn should at least balance the loss of toops in opposition to Rome
4 - Hasdrubal Dux should have all requirements to build removed and spawn a 10A/6D 10Health (with Blitz) unit after 60 turns (215BC?)
5 - Hannibal Dux should have all requirements to build removed.... Hannibal unit needs to have the Blitz ability added
6 - Samnites need to NOT require support so they are not disbanded, not the Servodici they enslave, they still require support
7 - BUILDABLE Early Defense 5 units MUST go... TOO MANY reloads just because of that! So all 275BC defense=5 buildable units become defense=4... Bastarnae were changed... Woah, I just saw the civ Thrace was added, how cool. I think an additional +15 more cost to equal 65 for Hoplitae Seleukidae (still has +3 health) and +10=60 for Hoplitae Ptolemiae (still has +2 health), then +10=70 cost for Hoplitae Antigonid (still has +4 health) is much more in line to the 120 cost for Legio Marius... How fair is it that they have such a great unit cheap? I smell spam anyways... NO MORE UNIT SPAM/SoD! Other Greeks are unchanged (other than 5->4) and I did not change the Sagitarius, since the player will not have to deal with them until later and the 5 Defense of any of the units spawned by wonders (Toxotes, Tribus Magna, ect.) is not changed. Question- Does the unit AI strategy for Hoplites need to be unflagged for DEFENSE now, since both OFFENSE and DEFENSE are flagged currently?
8 - Numidia should be allowed to go into a Military Alliance with Rome... so I added "Starts with Embassies" to Numidia (THIS HAS BEEN AMMENDED/REMOVED)
9 - Portus Migrare should be preplaced in Neaplois and unit spawn should be changed from 1 per 40 turns to 1 per 80 turns... It should also have its requirements to build removed... it also should lose its "airdrop" transportation ability as well, so Port of Ostia doesnt lose any importance.
10 - Reduce the Health on the Hannibal leader defending Carthage from 20 to 10, because, it being ridiculously hard aside, if the player can't take Carthago Nova until 199BC, it doesn't make sense to make it impossible to invade Africa. It shouldnt HAVE TO go by history
Almost Forgot
11 - reduce the bombardment rate of fire from 2 to 1 on all ships... (I'm open to a reasonable argument, but how does losing improvements continuously help the player's game)

[THIS NEEDS TO BE DONE SOMETIME, Not so important] *Update Civopedia so that Hasdrubal Dux says it spawns a Hasdrubal, not Hannibal... Update Civopedia so Imperium Scipionis says it spawns every 10 turns, not 15 (scared me when I read that, hehe)... Update Civopedia so Portus Migrare says it doesn't have any requirements and other changes- if my advice is taken

Anything I missed? Please add something if you feel there is additional baggage that makes this game unnecessarily frustrating... Please remember to be reasonable and not expect EVERYTHING to be changed (unlike me, hehe) or super-legions

I will be testing these out, shortly... TELL ME WHAT YOU GUYS THINK

If you like my ideas and want to test it out with me, or don't know how to use the CivEditor, or just plain lazy... here's the Biq - UPDATED 6/20 with additions discussed on next page
BIQ WITHDRAWN AS OF 1.22 PATCH - LOOK AHEAD FOR FUTURE BLITZ EDITIONS

 

[primordial stew]

Well yeah, the losses are just about accurate . But the huge number of reloads....

Actually, the Romans lost nearly 16 legions (16*5000) in 1 day at Cannae. Obviously this is impossible in the game. Not to mention all the legions Hannibal destroyed on the way down to southern Italy as well. SPQR would have to be spawning legions every other turn in order to avoid completely de-populating all of Italy with those sorts of loses!

Loses against Hannibal should be high, without worry to reload (except for armies!). So the key is the ability to recover. How can we make that happen?

Maybe create yet another wonder called "Scipio's Resolve" that spawns miles socius (to make sure Rome goes poor upgrading them), or maybe some new 7-5-1 legion It would be active during the 2nd Punic War, maybe 215 - 200BC spawning every 2 turns? A key is that it must spawn supported troops, but that Rome not be able to afford hording troops due to the 8gpt. That should encourage attacks if for nothing else to keep the numbers down! Rome was ready to give up, but Scipio rallied the Senate to keep going, thus the name.



#8 - Numidia is very easy to ally with, it's all just a matter of "seeing" them and then building an embassy.

#10 - It would be cool if the Scipio army could be more powerful, but there is no way without introducing another legion. Rome did learn quite a bit in the first war, and even more during the 2nd. That did reflect in the quality of thier army, but it's not in the game. For example elephants were a major problem to the original formations, but Scipio used a check-board organization, so when the elephants charged they simply moved out of the way. This was a huge change!!! Combine Romans advances with some reduction in the quality of Carthages army, alliance with Numidia, and the battle of Zama was a good win. Scipio legions shouldn't have too much trouble beating Hannibal, so maybe the same stats but only 8points?

#11 - No spawned ship should have bombardment, too much spam, spam, spam, baked beans, spam, and spam (but the baked beans are off). Enslaving cumbas is great, and naval blockades are great. No doubt Carthage should have plenty of ships, but with offensive bombardment they pound anything on the Hispanic coast, which is largely where your advance needs to be.

#1/2/3/4/5/6/9 - yes!

#7 - mostly, but a few spawned allied troops would be good. We do need to get some slaves out of the war. The 2 super-units should represent the bulk of the army, at least in Hispania.

 

[captain beaver]

As Primordial Stew said, your not supposed to be able to allie the Numids in the first punic war as it would unhistorical. Instead, when you take out Spain, you can make contact with them, build an embassy and they will be happy to go to war for you.