# Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

1. ### captain beaverCiv 3 addict

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Before uploading a biq with the missile unit, make sure it cana ctually kill big H. 30D and 20hp could resist even a 99A missile.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I did a little calculation of the chances of actually killing H with this missile.
99A/(99A+30D) = 76,71% of hitting him on the first shot
Since he has 20 hp, you have to do 0,7671^20 = 0,5% of taking all his hp off.
Anyways, I'm not sure the missile system works as the attack/defense system.

2. ### primordial stewEmperor

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In my game big H didn't take any cities because he can only attack 3 units/turn + up to 3 enslaved units, which could kill another 3. So a max of 6 velites/turn, but the avg should be 4/turn (33% chance of enslaving). If those enslaved units accumulate then the "velite defense" will be overwhelmed. Often enough the velite or defensive bombardment will hit once , so the AI will send the horse out of Roman territory to recover, and in doing so not accumulate a SOD.

So long as the player can produce enough velites, and bombard with ballistas, bigH will never amount to much. In my game he died attacking a velite, and velites were the only unit he killed. It didn't matter if he had 15A or 99A, just as it doesn't matter if I had 2D or 4D, no unit can stand up to him.

How then can the "velite fodder" defense be beaten? Maybe quickly spawn 6 4-4-1 conscripts, and 6 regular 6-4-1 units in the Alps as well, but remove bigH's enslave ability. This will give bigH an army to support him from the start. This may be too powerful, but it will be effective, so long as the AI keeps them together.

Those units represent the troops who joined him, but weren't so commited, or equiped/organized to be as effective as the regular army. The Roman's didn't have any problem beating these troops, it was only bigH they couldn't touch.

3. ### blitzkrieg80ðrymes ðēoden

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Primordial Stew, that's totally right. Although how does 99A NOT do better than 20? Wouldn't Hannibal NOT lose health if his Attack was higher?

I think that the now fixed Castra Cisapline improvements might help remedy that, since before a Delubrum Beli was required which would have taken too long, but now new units can instantly be built "IF" the player/AI loses Milan, same for Capua wonder. It's ok that the Hannibal unit has a counter- just another reason why we DON'T need a missle... A player who wishes to see Hannibal's full effect can willfully not employ the "Velite fodder" defense as we shall call it

4. ### pinktilapiaHomeless

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Oh oh Oh. Is it Christmas already? I got a nice big present in my mailbox! I will give it a quick look and PM Thunderfall to try to host the update here rather than at 3DDownloads (they are slower). Be patient, and congrat Blitz for the amazing job. Have a good week of 'holiday' away from RFRE (hopefully, you won't be too overwhelmed by the comments and suggestions that will surely come when you get back here !)

5. ### primordial stewEmperor

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But then there would no way to ever stop him!

I would like to see the historical approach as the best option. Sure you can fight him, but it is better to just avoid him. Instead take Spain, and invade Africa... and then fire the missle

It's always been Pinks hope that bigH would take a city or 2, but these are the Romans most productive cities, and all ballancing to date is based on the Romans always having them. I highly doubt bigH can take a bunch of cities, and still leave the player much hope of a historical game. The timeline is just too tight. IMHO going down the super bigH path has too big a risk of drawning out finishing RFRE. I joined Civ Fanatics to post on this mod, and it's been 10 months so far. Pink has been at it for years already!

Personally I'd like to have a go at a civIV version. Probobly all of the kludgy stuff that has to be done in civIII can be handled very well in civIV (except for the size of the map, that has to be much smaller). It has more potential to do a better job at what RFRE is trying to be. I thought RFRE would finish up, everyone would get over burnout, and then get going on that, but here we are :/ There is some rise of the Roman empire scenario in Warlords, so maybe Firaxis will do a good enough job that the motivation will be gone for having a historical version of Rome history. TAM also covers this time period, but they are just trying to create the environment, whereas RFRE is trying to follow the historical timeline.

6. ### blitzkrieg80ðrymes ðēoden

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Sorry for all the updates everybody, but this will be the last one for quite a while, especially if there aren't any major bugs. Thanks for bein patient and all the loyal testing/great suggestions.

Thanks for the words, Pink, I very much appreciate them after experiencing a tiny bit of all the work you have been doing for this MOD. I just hope everybody doesn't hate the changes like the departure of the well-done but awkward looking old EarlyRep. Legio graphics (just something about the color and helmet really bugged me )... Off the subject, it's still kind of funny having the Limitanei with a wooden shield after all the metal shield units- I still think the Principes should be the Mercenaria since they would be "cheaper", but oh well, people won't be too confused this way, it is good anyways that now the units will not be visually confused with each other, because of timeline and availability.

Primordial Stew, I was by no means suggesting the 99A, but using the value in comparison since you mentioned it... I don't think we need to go down the SuperH path as you say, it's fine as it is, or can be tweaked weaker, if everybody agrees he is too tough (especially for the Easy version).

I thought indeed RFRE is finishing up... There isn't much more to do- just find any final bugs... It is true that we have less beta-testers than one of our high points and Civ4 is a newer version, but I very much doubt Firaxis did any research/know anything about history to make the new scenario any good (I hope I'm wrong!). TAM is a very good MOD (the Civ3 version I mean, the Civ4 is weird, but I played an early version) but it is terrible for replication of history and balance of such... I would LOVE to see a Civ4 RFRE, so please let us know if you begin work on that! Good luck!

7. ### pinktilapiaHomeless

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1.24 made in Blitzland is up!
I am updating the first post, give it a couple of minutes

8. ### pinktilapiaHomeless

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If there is a civ4 team set in place soon, that would be...interesting (and scary! No don't pick me!). I agree Primordial Stew, I think that we should slowly accept to close this constant improvement process (which has been amazing, don't get me wrong) and call it a day. Bug hunting and major inbalance will be corrected in the near future, if there are any left, but we should stop throwing in big ideas. Of course, being now 'officially' retired, this is in Blitz (and Gaias, don't you guys forget about 2.0!!!) hands

9. ### blitzkrieg80ðrymes ðēoden

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Wow, sorry for my joking previous comments- that was QUICK! like blitz, ja!

I just noticed that the Huns cannot invade the Middle East through the Caucaus mountains... is that intentional? Is it to ensure Attila and other forces attack Eastern Europe?

10. ### pinktilapiaHomeless

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Jawolh herr blitz (sp?) - the AI needs all the help it can get (this is becoming my motto) and having corridors help (e.g Gibraltar open -> the Punic Navy replays the great armada)

11. ### the_Monarchannointed and crowned

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Hmm. I'm downloading 1.24 right now. I say we vote about the graphics now and stick to them. It's tedious to just go back everytime for this - major setback. All new updates should be biq and text only. So what say you? I'm sure Pink will back me up on this one .

About the "missile", my original idea was a great landmoving regular one attack ony unit that would weaken H so much a Consul would have no problem killing him, but, IMO, with a huge effort/sacrifice of cannonfodder, the player should have the same results earlier and maibe avoid too big a settback. The "sacrifice" would be the players choice (weather to lose more units or cities) but I definitelly oppose a 99.99. att/def because the player would just run away and leave everything open. Besides a huge attack might even endanger Rome! Ok, dl finished, I'll have a quick look see.

12. ### pinktilapiaHomeless

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I hope so much you won't be back in a minute having fished a bug! I am leaving this infernal office now before I get caught in another -also infernal- traffic jam. And yes, I agree with you Monarch

13. ### blitzkrieg80ðrymes ðēoden

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I don't agree with that if Gaius releases the Velite and Triarii graphics from RTR, we MUST include them.... The Triarii could be the Auxilia Palatina or Praesidium or both! But otherwise, yes. Aren't you the one who wanted the late legions changed in the first place? hehe BUT for now I would totally agree... There shouldn't be any more updates needed anyways...

The missle is an interesting idea but completely unnecessary. The Easy BIQ can have an easier Hannibal like 10/15/15 or 10/10/10 if Hannibal is too much of a challenge. BUT if you guys are really set on it, keep trying to enlighten us...

I've already found minor inaccuracies... like the Mithridates civilopedia text still says its a super unit... and I missed giving Gothia FAV GOVT-Christian Monarchy on the 275 BC Easy biq. Oh well.

UPDATE- Isn't the Marian Legion better for the Palatinae than a unit graphics that can be confused with another current unit? If not, then why not make the Palatinae look like the Cohortes Urbanae aka Scutatio which I had it before the last minute change... (good point on my words on lack of changes )

14. ### the_Monarchannointed and crowned

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Then I guess you hurried with this update . True, the Triaria would make a great Palatinae. And I dislike the idea of giving the Marius Legion animation to them. I'd stick to the original as they're closer to the Cohors Praetorianae. I remember Blitz beeing the one who said the game doesn't need all that many changes a few month ago. No, I haven't found any new bugs so far and I'm sure Blitz put a good effort in it . What I'd like to see posted in this thread is a movie of somebody playing the turns he meets hannibal . That would be fun... Hollybal style.

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16. ### blitzkrieg80ðrymes ðēoden

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I think the Hard version is pretty much OK, but anybody (Stew, ect) playing the Easy, please let me know what I can do for next time to make it easier... like I already think the special units probably need to be reduced a lot more on defense and attack, ect... What else, let me know!

Also, for all versions, let me know what you think of the new Eques Alarius Italicus: is it too strong, or is it useless? Should it upgrade to Eques Celticus instead of Legionarus, even though you can't build Celticus? I think Italic horsemen were still in use post-Marian reforms historically, but Celts were known to be more in style (besides pertinence to location of fighting, like Caesar IN Gaul itself) because they were in abundance besides their different style and skills in fighting.

Hmm... Lately I've been thinking about how the Germanics shouldn't really own Noricum/Raetia, since they were Celtic (make them Gaulish ?), but it's not something that should probably be addressed... right? They could be an extra civ, but that's not really beneficial to any of the civs... could mess things up?

Even though they were the first Christian kingdom, should Armenia (if still around) be allowed to change to that government? Right now they have that "favored", but they can build "Barbarian" buildings then even though they are technically "civilized"

UPDATE: So Mithridates should go back to 6 def... He is pretty tough at 7 (Sorry my bad, no more experimenting!) but am I the only one who thinks it is ABSURD (I mean TOTALLY FREAKING ABSURD) that there is 4 Praesidium Magnus at Sinope (or anywhere- I've gone over before why that many in one place is cruel and sadistic)... I'll shut up if you guys think that's fun, but I'm pretty sure you guys or anyone who tries it won't think it is. What is the reasoning in that anyways? If Sinope is NOT suppose to be conquered until the imperial era, that's not historical... Sinope fell to Marian legions... with 4 Presidium Magnus, and possibly an Exercitus Mithridates... that's ALOT of reloading... My full health ELITE Scipio unit (with Marians! 8 ATTACK) doesn't even do ANY damage sometimes making an amphibious assault and dies! AAAAAAAAAAAArg! Oh I see, 200% DEFENSE from Castra Armenica in all those cities too... WHY EVEN GIVE THE AI UNITS!? Why not bump up all AI improvement defenses to +999% and laugh it up as everyone just kills themselves- C'MON! The Mithridates leader unit has 10 defense (8 bonus health) +Moena+Portus+Fortify+Population+CastraArmenica... I don't even have to do the math on that one!!

Oh I am so cleaning up all of this nonsense next patch... and of course everyone must suffer or not play until then unless, you guys like all of that? Maybe the game should just include PowerBar so the Player can cheat past the AI cheats. Oh I am so obviously bitter, mostly frustrated

17. ### WolfhartThe Last in Line

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A minor bug (for the Parthians perhaps a major one) in 1.24:
the Praesidium Parthicum defence unit is a sea unit instead of a land one.

The rest of the mod so far:

18. ### captain beaverCiv 3 addict

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When can I finally update the 325AD start? Too much patching to do! I was trying to do it with something like version 1.22874837485498397Blitz but I had to change so many rules because of small bugs still left in there. Plus, with all those extra and new units/improvements for the AI, I basically have to eliminate all units and recheck every city. So, I'm still waiting for a green light.

19. ### captain beaverCiv 3 addict

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Well I decided to dl 1.24 and update the 325AD biq.
I had to do somes changes though :
1) Some wonders lost their militaristic trait as they would have given a GA for Rome right at the start
2) Eques legionarius upgrades to the mounted comitatenses and not the foot comitatenses
3) Removed pirates. Too much of a nuisance while the barbs are more agressive.
4) Tried to keep up with most of Blitz new buildings/units. Errors may occur
5) Made the HN praedator buildable by every barb nation and added 1 hp. They needed that extra boost to have a chance against the Limes
6) In a previous version, every Legio Mercenaria had been replaced with a Limitanei. This was before those units had support. Consequently, had I left them there, Rome would lose 3000g per turn with a treasury of 7000. Not good. So, because I'm lazy and did not want to remove all the Limitanei and put back the Merc, I exhanged their names and abilities in the unit list. All upgrade path are still respected. Rome now loses 1000gpt at the start.
7) Every Lime tile has a victory location on it . The comp will thus try to capture every Lime tyle so don't think you can leave them ungarisonned or he will put thousands of units on those tiles and when war is declared, they will wreak avoc on your rear end. (I tested it and the comp will not try to bypass the limes to go toward the cities. He will attack everything.)
8) Armenia is in a locked alliance with Rome
9) You are weak toward every nations except Armenia (thank you animus barbarus) but don't think that they don't have any units. A declaration of war from Persia means the loss of most of the Eastern Limes system on the first turn of war while a Germanic war means the loss of many Limes tile in a few turns (they are a bit father away so they take more time to attack you).
10) Changed the praesidium parthicum from a sea to a land unit
11) I made sure Numidia won't attack by mistake Egypt with its land unit by placing praesidium parthicum in the desert. They protect the barb camp and stop the numid horseman from destroying them. Egypt will have to be protected from barb attacks though.
12) There is a barb camp in Northern Spain, lower western Britannia, in the Alps and in north-west Gaul. They represent the occasionnal revolt of the time. They are well protected and only a very determined assault will allow their destruction.
13) For some reason, the intro is the 275BC one. I don't know where the 325AD went.
That's it. It's not bug free and probably either too easy or too hard but I need a bit of feedback before doing any other change.

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20. ### blitzkrieg80ðrymes ðēoden

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Good find, Wolfhart! Indeed it should NOT be a SEA unit Welcome to our team (sorry if I have missed the fact that you are not new at all)

Sorry, Beaver, I was thinking "how can I screw up Capt. Beaver's work" when I made all those changes Now I'm in for it! Thank you so much for the scenario!! It sounds awesome, thank you for your support of our poor barbarians and the Fall of the snooties!

*Beaver, the reason your script isn't loading is because you need to have RFRE325AD referenced in the Scenario Properties:Search Folders as FIRST, then the normal RFRE directory... because the first folder is the script it looks at... I even looked at your old RFRE325AD.biq and you had that before, just not in the new one. easy to fix! It looks like Persia doesn't have Magic Carpet tiles for the Bazaar... you have them preplaced, but new cities will need them... in 1.24 I have a Magic Carpet resource under Ecbatana and Persepolis, and I had to add in the "resources" that they could go on "plains", besides actually adding them on the cities... Wow, good job keeping track of all that rambling flurry of changes I did... I LOVE the location of that Spanish barbarian camp, it's EXACTLY the location of the Cantabria, I'm sure that's no coincidence Like in my scenario, Spain should be almost completely conquered, but you can never keep those pesky natives from making noise! I chose to give Iberia cities, but I'm thinking of doing something like you are with barbarians