Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

[pinktilapia]

Well done, Cpt Beaver! I understand you updated your map based on the old one and not Blitz latest BIQs though. Many bugs corrected in 1.24 might have to be checked in your BIQ as well... Bughunters, action stations! Is making that parthian garrison a sea unit my mistake? Don't reply, I know it is

EDIT Blitz! Cities with the urban garrison were not supposed to be taken with the sheer strenght of arms (at least before late Republican times). This unit was added so as to force the player to inherit these cities peacefully, and help them to resist the tide of the armies of Pontus, Parthia, the Seleukids, whatever. Now, I always overdo it, I let you tune this to a more acceptable level

 

[blitzkrieg80]

Hey, don't blame me for the Sea unit! Well, isn't 200% defense (not including other buildings) a little much for a building which already has the purpose of spawning kickass units without expiration? I WANT YOU TO PLAY IT OUT ON 1.24

Is it me or did that road I added in hinterland Germania make them much more fearsome/annoying? This is good, though...?

OMG, I bought one of the Thracian cities for 130 gold! Are they loose or what

 

[the_Monarch]

Speaking of realism, Illyria has tons of spam Praesidium although it should be a walk in the park normally, a punitive expedition against some pirates during a lunch break from the real threat: the Punic Wars. Thracia has even more units and is better prepared for war than Dacia . I know you're supposed to inherit them but is it a strategy to allow them to expand in all directions then buy all their cities for 130 gold ? These new strengthenings in the Balkans only mean Carthage will just be one of the other enemies, not THE primordial enemy...

For Pontus, a Castrum Armenia is useless, IMO, but if you chose to put it then make sure it expires with Mithridates. I was the one who suggested the player shouldn't get Sinope beforehand but I guess 4 Praesidium Magnum means it will NEVER be conquered.

What I liked the first minute I saw RFRE was diversity (just as it was in history): for example you had some nations having city fortressses, like Bovianum, Syracusae, Carthage etc, while others havin more of a national border aproach: Seleucids, Pontus, Dacia. Then there were those impassable barbs and those passable but impregnable Persians. A lot of flavor. Simply boasting every enemy city with tons of def units is not fun anymore . Many of them fell after a field battle and were not besieged at all. It reminds me of civ 2 when all was quiet outside but the city had 20-30 units garrisoning it.

Also, about flavor, Blitz, would you like to add some more flavor to barb early cavalry? And maibe find some barb units that didn't have late medieval heartshaped shields ? We should also find a different graphics for the falxman now to differentiate from your Miles Rompius, maibe from the same RTW. If you find some of Steph's units that you like but don't have an ini file there's no problem, I can edit one for them if you don't have much time. There're some cool banner holding infantry (ensign) and cavalry there that we could use

 

[blitzkrieg80]

What if you happen to be playing on Valentines day? The shields would be perfect then! I don't know if I can add anymore graphics, because one of our beta-testers named Monarch said he'd kill me Steph's units are also missing .pcx files for the unit32.pcx but I do like some of his emaciated looking humans... otherwise I'm pretty sure Pink used all of the good graphics available, some even from fictional realms, like the Rohirrim, but they're excellent graphics! We should definitely keep an eye out for RTW graphic conversions because they have good graphics even though their history is gutter-born. Anyone played RTR or EB even? Notice how the game when played by the Romans is FAR from historical, simply because their efforts to make every nation playable makes it all diverge early on and only get worse! Thus, one can see how AWESOME RFRE is since most of the time one has to play historical, but not completely necessary for other fun aspects... I love how I've learned so much about random Roman history just because each change of unit or new wonder has a specific history!

I totally agree... next patch, defensive units like Praesidium in places like Illyria will be scaled way down and I think Praesidium/Tribus Magnus should get support back (unless you guys like all those extra units the AI has... it seems like I made a bad decision again on my part there looking at the SODs). With 10 defense on Mithridates I don't think Sinope needs 200 defense on the Castra Armenica, maybe remove that, and other cities will be easier anyways? I also don't think EVERY nation has to be terribly hard to defeat... such as the Syrians- Pompey stomped them in like 1-2 turns game-wise and yet with all of the units given to them initially before I reduced them, they're up there with Pontus or worse than them. oh well (although I actually like the strong, flavorful new Seleukid hoplite though, since it reflects their unique historical military status)

 

[the_Monarch]

So we agree on many accounts then, feldmarshall . I'm not all that resentfull towards those who disagree with me either . My opinion is we should do a theoretical debate before our units come and we release a "final" patch once more. I too agree the Seleucid Hoplites are too good. For gameplay they should be the least powerfull of their brethren, also historically I don't know. They and the Ptolemies changed tides many times but since the Ptolemies cannot replenish their own hoplites I'd give them the extra quality.

So I'd say the Antigonids should be the strongest, just as they are, then the Ptolemies, then the Achaians (and Atheneans, Aetolians, etc) and only then the Seleucids, Thracians and the rest (Thracians would better use their Miles Rompius)

 

[captain beaver]

Many bugs corrected in 1.24 might have to be checked in your BIQ as well... Bughunters, action stations!

I am so desperatly waiting for a final patch because the 325AD start absolutely has to have some rule change (if only the militaristic wonders not having that trait checked). Anyways, since most of the bugs affect the early eras (since every change is on the early era) my version is probably less buggy than most.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

What does the militaristic wonder trait do? I thought it was useless

 

[pinktilapia]

I WANT YOU TO PLAY IT OUT ON 1.24

I know - Just can't find much time for Civ these days. Reading the thread is my sole satisfaction nowadays

 

[primordial stew]

Hannibal showed up in attack range of Aquelia in 211BC! He killed 1 velite + enslaved, and then the horse took the city.. bah!

Since the AI has less units on easy, it's less aggresive, so I've had to initiate both Punic wars. WW has set in before bigH even completed his sneak attack.

Macedonia joined Carthage. They razed Doclia. The other greeks have joined me.

Scipio should be coming soon.. Sooner would be better, there is plenty of combat to do! No Hasbrusudl sighting yet.

=================
207, no Scipio yet, bigH @ 14/25, velites + funditors taking serious loses.. With 20D in hillls only ballistas have hit so far, everything else misses.

Can we remove pillage from all of the early AI units? I see no reason what so ever they should have this. Also, why does bigH have collateral damage? bigH never had any seige equipment, so this doesn't make sense.

=================
Scipio finally in 204BC, the same year bigH was finally defeated.

BUG in 1.24 275easy - Hasburdsul Dux has 900% defense and doesn't expire till 200BC. This makes Carthago Nova impossible to take. It also has a castrum and walls. Historically Scipio took the city by suprise with little trouble, and so why is it this a super fortress? Carthage was out of Hispania by ~205. Hannibal Dux is the same 900% defense till 200BC.

 

[Taijian]

Hi there!
Some remarks from my game:
- I agree that there should be less def-units/bonuses on most ai cities. Sinope was hell to take and Sarmizetegusa was even worse - since I was not prepared to loose most of my army in either case, I spent probably an hour reloading in each instance, which was not a lot of fun
- The tribus barbarius magnus are also quite bad: Taking a barbarian settlement with oppidum, vallus and TBM means that you need either lots of siege equipment or some army. Since siege equipment is slow (especially in Gaul, Germania and Brittain, where there are no roads), wars take a looong time. Maybe just preplace some TBM where necessary, but remove their being spawned, that is just overdoing it. One of the is enough per normal settlement!
- Weakening Syria: I'm not sure that would be a good idea, as that means that Pontus/Egypt/Persia will just walk over them, possibly before the player has a chance to get there. In my game I was delayed tackling them, because Dacia attacked me and I had to deal with them first, so in the middle of that war I had to shift some units east because Persia was very quickly taking over Syria...
- I concurr on weakening Illyria.

Other than that, it's been a lot of fun!

One more thing - I think the Tribute to Attila should be made an improvement - 100 gpt forever is maybe a little tough for Rome at that point...
Same goes for Consilium Nicaea - why does it cost so much? I mean, if I just build the churches, they do not cost anything, right? Then why 80 gpt for a wonder that does nothing but place them?

 

[pinktilapia]

@P. Stew - we could remove his collateral damage. I would keep the pillage options though, war was bad for the countries where it was waged. With plenty of slaves thanks to the catasta, Rome should be able to rebuild quickly enough. Or do you speak of Greek countryside getting plundered before you get there ?

@Taijian

Thanks for the feedback
Blitz will surely fix things your way with the next update of the BIQs.
Churches (ecclesia) do cost gold to maintain though. So if you have more than 80 cities, you will actually save money, plus the shields you won't have to put in to build some of them... The thing is, in previous version, Rome has way too much gold in the fiscus, reason why we had the tribute to Attila wonder, and expensive stuff like the counsil of Niceae...

 

[blitzkrieg80]

One of the main reasons it is futile to look for more graphics is that Pink has already added them and in many cases, new graphics are not new at all: Case in point- I just realized the early Eques in game is Steph's Roman Equites graphics animation and NOT the ancient calvary, just the icon!! GREAT JOB!! I was thinking that would be perfect for that and I was even going to add it and I would have wasted my time if I didn't notice it was already there!!

I'm compiling a list of changes (my own errors I've found and those mentioned on thread) and implementing them to release a mini-patch before I am gone for awhile... This is my list so far... please add to it or argue against some of it!

-Road in Scythia altered/extended downward toward Gothia
-Gothia given Christian Monarchy as FAVORED GOVT in 275Easy
-All city culture, except civ. capitals returned to default-275BC in 100BC scenario
-Extra Goth units in 100BC scenario removed to default-275BC
-Comitatensis horse unit graphics changed back to Ancient Cavalry from Roman Equites >< I thought it was the same... me <--- dumbass
-Exercitus/Dux Mithridates info changed to normal in civilopedia
-Italian Allies starting money in 100BC changed to less to prevent Rome from easy money from conquest
-reduced defensive forces in Illyria for easier Roman conquest
-collateral damage removed from early units (Pirates, HN Praedators, Hannibal/Hasdrubal, Elephants) and added collateral damage to Farber Sassinidus
-Hannibal/Hasdrubal wonders expire in 225
-Tributus wonder fixed so it can be built by removing Capital building requirement, since Hunni resource is not at that location
-All Civilized cities reduced to 1 Praesidum Magnus if city had ANY before, and reg. Praesidium substituted for those removed
-All Barbarian cities reduced to 1 Tribus Magnus if city had ANY before
-Exercitus Mithridates DEF reduced back to 6 from 7
-Italian Allies civ renamed to Italic Allies
-Tribus Attilae wonder changed to improvement (player's choice to cheat and sell or not)
-Migratio Helvetica DEF bonus reduced to 100 from 150
-Praesidum Parthica changed to land unit
-Eques Alarius Italicus bombard strength reduced to 2 from 3, upgrade changed to Eques Alarius Celticus
-removed enslave ability from new Allied Eques and Holite units
-reduced special unit stats on EASY
UPDATED
-Vercingetorix, Boudicca, Decebalus, and Mithridates Leader units have DEF reduced to 7 from 10 (Decebalus and Mithridates' health reduced to 5)
-add city Batavi to all scenarios- Germans at the mouth of the Rhine
-add city Flaviobriga near Cantabria to all scenarios- Iberia
-immobile units don't require support (Praesidium Magnus, Praesidium Parthicum, Tribus Magnus) exluding Cohors Sacra
-Bellator Galatium, all Sagitarius, Toxotis require support
-make sure zone of control, bombard fx are flagged on Toxotis, Sagitarius Tescorum, Maccabeus
-Praesidum Parthica changed to land unit, then also DEF AI strategy flag checked
-Give some other barbarian civs (Iberia, Illyria, Thracia) the ability to produce HN Praedator in all scenarios
-correct Numicus upgrade path to other Predabundus
UPDATED UPDATE
-move Boudicca to more historical location
-Hoplitae Alarius/Castra Hoplitarum cost changed to 2, maintenance 0, spawn rate to 12, buildable with Macedonian Wars, expiration with Age of Augustus, cost reduced to 45 so it can't upgrade so cheap, remove build fort/detect invisible/airlift to make more like Celticus
-Celticus Alarius/Castra Celtica maintenance changed to 0, spawn rate 12
-Celts now req. resource instead of Gallic Goods for Castra Celticus
-added more Celts resources to make all of Gaul recruitable
-added more Foederatii to make all of seizable Germania/Dacia (Except Naissus) recruitable and replaced some in Dacia so they don't build Cimbri/Teutons
-Hoplite Alarius changed back to upgrade with Miles Auxiliarius and NO SUPPORT, but 5A/4D
-added Mauretania civ in 100BC scenario so Rome can inherit, but not start with that area; Rome owns the rest of Numidia
-removed Celts from Carthago Nova city radius

 

[primordial stew]

@P. Stew - we could remove his collateral damage. I would keep the pillage options though, war was bad for the countries where it was waged. With plenty of slaves thanks to the catasta, Rome should be able to rebuild quickly enough.

There are plenty of slaves later, but it's not even 200BC, so no catasta yet, and on easy there are less slaves to be had. How would a person destroy a road in those times anyway? I suppose some chopped down trees could be put across it, but the foot/mule/horse wouldn't have a problem with that.

A city usually loses improvements when it changes hands.


I see Mithradites still has 10D with +10HP!!!! At best we have 8A legions. That 10D + a min of 25% (or it is 50%, fortify + town?). I had a bigger post about it some pages back, but basically it took 4(!!!!!!) armies to beat him. How about 7D + 5HP? Respectable, but not impossible.

> -Tribus Attilae wonder changed to improvement (player's choice to cheat and sell or not)

It is historically accurate to stop the payments.

The changes sound good.

BTW, is portus supposed to cost 0 to build? I kind of like it, but wasn't expecting this. This helped my defense of Aquilia. bigH kept blowing up the walls and they cost 400 gold to rush, but the portus just took 1 turn and provides the same +50% defense

 

[blitzkrieg80]

I was complaining about Carthage destorying my ports over and over, so that was the compromise

 

[captain beaver]

What does the militaristic wonder trait do? I thought it was useless

Normally, any improvement with the militaristrait checked cost half as much to build for the militaristic civ. However, a wonder with this trait gives a golden age to any civ which is militaristic instead.

 

[the_Monarch]

Why not make the Pharus give a Port in every city, that way it won't ever be destroyed after you build the Pharus. One more incentive to do it quicly. Kinda silly to say the portus was destroyed anyway. But the thing is the bombardment would destroy the Arx litoralis first...

Glad we agree on the Eques, finally . The player shouldn't be "allowed to cheat" about Attila's tribute. It's not a matter of conscience here . Either we chose to allow him to sell the tribute as Justinian never had to pay it of course and chose realism but we should see when should we sell it. How about if the building itself expires so you cannot rebuild it but if you sell it you cannot build the wonder(s). But I guess the upkeep would expire too, right? Tricky.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

actually, Arx Litoralis aren't always destroyed first... fact is, no building is always destroyed before anything else, it's random.. I've had portus destroyed before Arx Litoralis and Mercatus destroyed before Moena or visa versa... Monarch, I don't undestand what you're suggesting with the Tribute- it already expires and already is required to build wonders? If the upkeep expired then we wouldn't have to make it a building... So, let me get this straight, you vote for it not to be a building because the player shouldn't have so much money? I think players shouldn't destroy the Domus Aurea or Tributus Atillae if they want to play it right, otherwise it's an allowable cheat! yes, you're CHEATERS! muahaha (I'll probably cheat myself in that respect). Pink is NOT allowed to cheat though, since he must SUFFER as much as possible for all these ideas of his

Question for Pink: Is the Servi Defecti suppose to start a Golden Age? It does! I was surprised, it made it more rewarding to build thats for sure... but then also I had a Golden Age during 2 Civil Wars!
*Also, Pink, WHY are there 3 Seleukid Hoplites in Appollonia?! and 1 in Syracuse?!

 

[the_Monarch]

For better defense I'm sure. No, I vote for it to be an improvement, just like I wanted for the Domus Aurea to be an improvement. But we should make sure the player keeps it exactly as long as he should in history. So correct me if I'm wrong as I'm just guessing but once the improvement runs obsolete, so does its maintenance along with all the other effects. So just make the improvement run obsolete at a certain date, that way no more negative effects but improvement is stil present so as to allow some late wonder(s). Just a minor thing so the player that doesn't know he SHOULD sell it isn't discriminated. The only problem is that, as an improvement it could be sold and rebuilt only when needed so if the Domus Aurea had a very short and desastrous effect, the tribute should have a semnificant shiled cost so the player doesn't sell it too often. Or it could be a one time payment if he sells it quick but then it would be anacronic .

So, bottom line: make the tribute cost 1000 gpt but last just 50 turns. Also it should cost 500 shields or such so the player doesn't sell it too often and should be prerequisite for a whole bunch of GOOD wonders so the player doesn't find a way around building it or curses us for it. Anything lower than 1000 gpt is crap compared to the finances of a 100 city empire. So how's that for kicks?

I never built the servi defeci. It definitely shouldn't start golden age. I'm still thinking of a way to introduce SPartacus in the game too and I WILL FIND IT.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

No, thank you The player shouldn't sell it at all... I guess I can leave it a wonder? I really do appreciate the info. and opinions. All of it also helps me make a decision for all of us in the lack of votes... final decision for now: just make the wonder an improvement that's all we did with the Domus Aurea and the player should technically never destroy either building

YES! Sparticus sounds awesome... I don't see it happening though

Q: How are these new special unit stats for Easy (let me know if they need to be lower, or higher, but let's not be mean ):
Exercitus Mithridatis 10A/5D, Exercitus Hannibal 12A/15D, Exercitus Hasdrubal 8A/5D, Copiae Attila 12A/8D, 6 def for all special leaders (except Hannibal)
UNCHANGED special units from 1.24 (let me know if they need to be lower):
Helvetii 8A/5D, Cimbri 8A/6D, Teutones 8A/5D, Peltastae Samnitici 6A/3D, Servus Seditiosus 7A/4D

HEY- What do you guys think about adding the Socii Italici to the 275BC game and place their 1 city capital at Bovianum? Would it lag everything too much?
Also, what about Mauretania?? There is a free slot and I'm going to use it anyways for my scenario! I figure, it's wierd if Rome has Mauretania in 100BC, but Roem should be able to inherit it!! It's very possible that we'll just use those two civs in my 100BC game. Extra lag and weakening other civs might not be that benefitual just for historical flavor.

Nobody has commented on whether to add a Batavi city or Cantabri city for historical accuracy and extra value =o) so hwaet sayeth ye?

 

[blitzkrieg80]

*Does anybody know how to change a default leaderhead, lets say the DUTCH to NUMIDIA, because nothing seems to be working???? I've made new references for a unique race that uses the same art files as NUMIDIA in the pediaicons and even made a civilopedia entry, nonetheless used the CivEditor to specify the .flc and yet somehow it doesn't change AT ALL! NVM- I think I forgot to change the animation .flc for ALL of the Ages.