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Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

  1. jlvfr

    jlvfr King

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    Looks ok to me.
     
  2. captain beaver

    captain beaver Civ 3 addict

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    The problem with railroads is once built, you can basically shift your entire army from one front to the next in the same turn. Suppose you build a railroad from the Rhine to the Danube. If Scythia has more units in position to attack this turn, move all your Rhine units to the Danube. Presently, you have to spread everything out to cover every border city because if you get attacked somewhere, it will take 2 to 3 turn for your units elsewhere to come to the front. If you have railroads, you don't need to garrison anything as you can shift your entire army at will from one place to the other. It would defeat the purpose of having Limes.

    Beside, even if railroads take a long time to build, you have to allow the servus to build them. Why? In order for the computer to recognize the servus as a "worker" and use him as such, it must have the terraform box checked in the editor. However, for that box to be checkable, the unit must be able to build railroads. Believe me, give me railroading servus+legio+faber and I'll be able to move all my units from Hispania to Byzantium, take the ferry to Nicomedia, then move it to Mesopotamia, all in 1 turn. Whoever attacks me will face my entire army at once.
     
  3. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    And that puts the railroad idea to sleep. Officially NOT in the next patch.
     
  4. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    I have finally perfected Captain’s Beaver idea about the 3rdCC simulation of economical disaster. This is, however only one possibility and I am not fanatical about it, nor do I want to push it down people’s throat. So please offer a fair criticism of the idea and tell us whether you would prefer this idea or the alternative, which is basically
    1 - make some research / wealth buildings go obsolete with the 225 ad tech (census and bibliotheca, as well as the emporium and latifundia, like it is already the case)
    2 – add other resources like “overused land” in a timely and scaled fashion to cut Rome’s income.

    Now, the other possibility :

    - Crisis of the 3rd Century tech (henceforward C3C) makes available 2 wonders : The first is called “Economical Crisis” (EC). EC costs 0 shield, requires Principate, never goes obsolete and puts a building in all cities on continent, the “Local Economical Crisis” (LEC). LEC spawns a 0att, 0def, impossible to disband unit requiring support (the rate has to be determined). LEC requires the Principate and never goes obsolete. This is what will hurt the economy : the spawning of units that have to be supported that the player can’t get rid of. We will also make sure EC and LEC are there long enough to actually hurt the economy in a significant way.

    The second wonder is the eponymous “C3C” wonder. It creates 9 unhappy citizens in all cities (numer can be tweaked), costs 0 shield, requires EC to be built and Principate. It never becomes obsolete and it spawns a Legio Mercenaria every 2 turns.

    Soldier Emperors tech makes 1 wonder available, and this is the crucial part : “Opus Imperator-Soldati” this wonder makes 7 unhappy citizens content in all cities (number can also be tweaked), doubles the defense of cities, costs the maximum 1000 shields (I think this is the max cost for a wonder – can anyone please confirm?), requires the C3C wonder to be built and the Principate, is required to build a spaceship part (which ensures that EC, C3C and Opus... will be built) and becomes obsolete with Diocletian’s Reform. The shield cost means that, to build it, even in the Empire’s best city for production (normally Mediolanum can reach a shield production of 67-70) will take 15 turns. Add in the fact that EC and C3C are prerequisite for the wonder, it means a minimum, if optimized, 16 turns of effects for the EC, which is more than enough for it to impact the economy if the spawn rate is high enough.

    - Diocletian’s Reform tech will allow the Absolute Principate and the wonder “Renovatio Diocleti”. When the player discovers this tech, he will switch to Absolute Principate and will thus stop suffering from LEC. This tech will allow the unit spawned by LEC to upgrade to a useless, nearly identical unit which however can be disbanded. (and not to a servus, as we don’t want to make the empire any stronger at this point and there are probably more than enough servi around at this point)

    The only real drawback is that “Opus Imperator-Soldati” is now a nearly useless wonder in itself. It will only affect the game for 1 turn (which is why the C3C now spawns the Legio Mercenaria) It still theoretically counters the bad effects of C3C, but its effects will be around for such a short time that it is only symbolic. I don’t think it is that terrible. The double city defense was never, imo, useful and we can view the wonder as an achievement rather than a benefical thing in itself. The very high cost of Opus... also means that the player will have to put the science at 0% while researching Diocletian’s Reform in order to make sure Opus can be built before it becomes obsolete, and thus unbuildable. That is also good, as it means more time to suffer from LEC. On the other hand, this scheme will make sure that the player leaves the Triumvirate at some point for the Principate and it will also assure the passage from Principate to Absolute Principate in order to avoid the crippling effects of C3C (remember that it never goes obsolete) Opinions ?
     
  5. König Markus

    König Markus Warlord

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    NO railroads in RFRE. Are railroads are railroads. I don't like ancient/medievial mods or scenarios in which railroads are.
    And even in reality it took weeks to shift legions from west to east.
    And let the roads in RFRE as they are.


    @Christophoros
    Good proposal!
     
  6. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

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    Good proposal indeed, for what's it worth, you have my 'blessings' to go ahead. Frankly, this is the patch I have been looking forward to. Armed with your intense gaming experience with the mod, you are one of the few whom can fix this economic issue!
     
  7. captain beaver

    captain beaver Civ 3 addict

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    @Christophoros
    Sounds good on paper. Two comments:
    1)The clever player will actually have less than 16 turns where EC is active. Time your build of EC and C3C such that C3C is finished 1 turn before you discover Diocletian's reform. You then switch to building Opus Imperator-Soldati (OIS). You have 1 turn left before discovering Diocletian's reform. The next turn, the tech is discovered and OIS is obsolete. However, since you started building it 1 turn ago, you are still building it. It disappeared from the building list, but the city building it can continue working on it as long as it doesn't change project. You go into civil war that same turn, EC and C3C stop working, but you're still building OIS, meaning you will be able to win the space race and avoid the economic crash. End result: you have about 1 turn where EC is active.
    2) To counter the fact that OIS becomes a 1 turn wonder, why not add one in between C3C and OIS? Call it Aurelian Reconquista (for his lightning conquests of the Gallic and Palmyrene Empires), and give it a 1000 shield cost, +7 content citizens, requires Principate gov and expires with Diocletian's reforms. Essentially, it replaces OIS. Then make OIS cost 0 shield, require Aurelian Reconquista, expire with 375AD (as it does right now), double city defenses and spawn Legio Mercennaria every 8 turn (as it does right now). Of course, you remove the C3C spawning abilities. This would technically leave OIS as a usefull wonder while changing nothing of your proposed game mechanics.

    So 2 thumbs up from me. Just explain it well in the civilopedia. If a player screws up and discovers Diocletian's reform before starting building OIS, his game will be ruined for no reason. That's probably the best we can do given game limitation. As long as my "solution" to the problem doesn't become too well known, this should work.
     
  8. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    @Captain Beaver : I appreciate your criticism and insight. I had forgotten that a building continues to be built even if it is obsolete. Thanks for the tip. I think your solution is good and actually historically meaningful - Aurelianus' work was indeed vital to the Empire's survival. Solution adopted and everything will be thoroughly explained in the updated civilopedia.

    Just so people have an idea of what I'm aiming for, I would like the third century with all its problems to cause a loss of something like 60 000 to 80 000 gp. Not enough to bring the treasury down to 0 if the game was played very well until then, but enough so that the next crisis, starting in 425ad, will bring it to 0 before a revival under Justinian and, especially, Heraclius.

    I am still looking for people's opinions about any other question or suggestion. CB's other suggestion about limitanei and Legio Mercenaria being immobile units looks promising. Care to comment ?
     
  9. König Markus

    König Markus Warlord

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    "Aurelian Reconquista" - Good idea!

    I suppport an immobile Limitanei.

    Do we already have some more Late Roman units which also look more Roman (in Units Library)?
    Actually I don't like the current version of the Legio Mercenaria.
     
  10. König Markus

    König Markus Warlord

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    What about his proposal? Can we do this?
    I support his proposal. What are your opinions?
     
  11. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

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    We have no civ slot free. Adding an iberian civ would be at the expense of another...

    Immobile limitanei sounds ok, but just how do you foresee one would deploy troops? Paradropping?
     
  12. König Markus

    König Markus Warlord

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    No free slot? - Oh, well, then not. Not so important.


    Yes, paradropping.

    EDIT:
    If the Limitanei will be immobile, then we have to change its stats, since its attack strength will be useless.
     
  13. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

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    Yes! An attack of 0 would be best, it would reduce the perceived strenght of Rome as calculated by the AI, thus increasing the chances to see barbarians actually declaring war to the empire late in game.
     
  14. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    Regarding Iberia, I think the existing roads already mimic the time frame of the conquest. The main conquest (all the cities initially linked by roads) takes a little time, though not as many as 20 turns, and afterwards, you can make peace with Iberia and come back later, with a small force, to finish up the conquest, Iberia's power having been broken in the main event. So the rate of conquest is somewhat historical. (I never conquer Iberia all at once, as it takes too much time in the crucial early game)
     
  15. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    I was under the impression that units could only be paradropped from cities with "airport", in this case cities with Great Ports. Am I right ? If so, the only way to make it work would be, like Captain Beaver said, to create a "helicopter" like unit to transport those units where the player wants them. What do you think ?
     
  16. König Markus

    König Markus Warlord

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    Same functions like the Piratae unit including be immobile.
    Illyria and Pirates don't have "airports", do they?
     
  17. Stazro

    Stazro Prince

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    I think it's complicated. And another thing: Either you have a little number of heli-units, then it will be hard to distribute the units at the limes, or you will have many of them, then you can use them to transport any units anywhere by rebasing the helis. And think of the advantage you have by beeing able to drop units somewhere instead of walking them there.

    Regarding the crisis: It seems to be a fruitful discussion and i think it is an interesting idea, but i still feel obliged to beg for mercy for the poor roman emperors ;) A thing like this can quickly be overdone and i'm sure a lot of people can be discouraged by facing a battle which seems unwinnable just because of some annoying useless units more than halfway through the game. So, please be careful :)
    To contribute a bit to the discussion on what is too little or too much, i'll start to regularly post about the economical situation when i have time to continue my game.
     
  18. Stazro

    Stazro Prince

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    I think the Latebrae Piratarum (or what ever they are called) are airports.
     
  19. König Markus

    König Markus Warlord

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    Well... yes. It should be the "veteran air units" function in the editor.

    So we could create a further city improvement "Limes fort" with the function "veteran air units" and not allowing "air trade".
    So it should just work as an airfield.

    The Latebrae Piratarum allows to build "veteran air units".
    The Great Ports don't allow to build "veteran air units", but they allow "air trade".
     
  20. Stazro

    Stazro Prince

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    Ah, yes, you are right, two different options. Then i'd say is a better solution than helicopters.
     

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