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Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

  1. König Markus

    König Markus Warlord

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    Yes. Maybe we could call it: "Castellum".
    For example: At first buildable with "Siege Engineering". Allows: Veteran air units (airport without air transport) and Veteran ground units (works as barracks). Never goes obsolete. No culture. No defence bonus. Needs 4-5 gold support.
    So it would be only useful to build at the borders or later when Triumphus (barracks) goes obsolete.

    Your opinions?
     
  2. World Destroyer

    World Destroyer Chieftain

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    Hi everyone. Been lurking for quite awhile.

    I think that this improvement would have to require the Foederati resource in the city radius, so that it can only be built in cities on or close to the limes.
     
  3. captain beaver

    captain beaver Civ 3 addict

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    Good idea. I was thinking to use the name Pugnaculum Limitanei, which according to an online translation site is Fortress Limitanei (so the local fortress for the Limes' troops). Castellum can also mean castle, fortress, wall,... I would also add in 6 gold as upkeep. Perhaps as a bonus we could check the "Resistant to propaganda" and "Reduces Corruption" chechboxes. I would also check the must be near a river box to restrict the number of cities that can build this. Making it require Foederati is not a good idea because we must also think about the Eastern/Southern borders and what happens if the player doesn't make it all the way to the Rhine/Danube. Further, make it expire with the tech Justinian the Great. By that time, the player should be relying more on the comitatenses. Also, from what I understand, the Limes were progessivel abandonned after 400AD and the fall of the Western Roman Empire. The use in depth defense was adopted. As such, the ennemy was allowed to penetrate deep inside roman territory before being met in battle with little opposition before that.
     
  4. World Destroyer

    World Destroyer Chieftain

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    Wouldn't that just be a really good incentive for the player to keep/take/retake the Rhine/Danube cities? As for the Eastern/Southern borders, we could have two other improvements (similar to the different "limes" the player receives with the Siege Engineering tech), which would require new, otherwise useless, resources (or simply bonus resources, like incence in the East) in the radius of the cities the improvements should be built in.

    This would mean that only the Northern Limes could go obsolete with the Justinian the Great tech (to simulate the abandonment of the Northern Limes, while still showing the Eastern Roman Empire's tenacious fighting over North Africa against the Vandals and the East against the Persians/Arabs).
     
  5. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    - Regarding the deployment of immobile limitanei / legio mercenaria : I agree that the solution "creates veteran air unit" is much better than the helicopter like unit. I think we should seriously consider it. However, it just dawned on me that, right now, the Legio Merc and Limitanei are both part of the normal upgrade path to the great Stratiotes unit. I have played up to that period of the games 4-5 times and the fact that you can upgrade what are basically 2 not so good units to a support-free really great defender one is a good part of any reconquest that might take place at this late stage. What worries me is that, by making the economy really crash in the 3rd and 5th century, the player is going to need that upgrade more than ever.

    Could anyone who played to the end game please comment ?

    Stazro : Regarding the magnitude of the economical crash : you have to realize it is necessary to make the 3rd century a real time of crisis : right now, the so called crisis is a bit of a joke to experienced players. Sure, you spend 5-6 turns with your luxury slider at 50% and a -1000 gpt, but who cares when, by the time the crisis comes, you have 100 000 gold pieces in your treasury ? Like Pink said, this is the part of the mod that is, right now, severely lacking. Like I said, I'm will make the crash so the player loses something like 60k-80k : not enough to bring it to zero, and thus the "revival" of the 285-375 period is still ok, but enough so that, by the time 425ad comes, it will be a real problem. I think many experienced players agree with that. (CB, Pink, KM...)

    But please voice any concerns, as I don't want to be overly sadistic... Ah, the Blitz curse is upon me, my hair is growing and a red veil is overtaking my eyesight....
     
  6. primordial stew

    primordial stew Emperor

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    The wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_of_the_Third_Century has a good explanation of the "economic crisis" under discussion. The decrease in trade is already mapped to the expiration of tax buildings, so the main missing part is give some feel of Gaul+Histpania+Britania and Syria+Aegyptus splitting off into rebelling kindgoms.

    My proposal is to drop the +/- happy people parts, and instead put a new resource, similar to the overused land, but instead of food it zeros out production and commerce. This resource is the thing that the "Aurelian Reconquest" will obsolete. My limited understanding is that the loses from the reconquests were not significant, but the damage could be viewed as lost productivity from ~1/2 the empire during a critical time. With no production those cities will only be able to conscript miles aux, and then only if big enough.
     
  7. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    There are two things at stake here : gameplay and history. If we make the crisis to follow history, it will never be severe enough to be a serious handicap for the experienced player, just like it isn't right now. It would be historically accurate to lower to zero the production and income of half the empire, but would it be enough to diminish the great gold reserve the standard experience player has by this stage ? And I think only the loss of commerce is important : the loss of shield only damages the production of Legio Merc, as there is simply nothing else to build by that stage : the army is at its peak number wise and all the good buildings have been built a long time ago.

    And historically speaking, the "crisis" was a complex thing : the non stop warfare was really draining the coffers (whereas, in civ, it makes no difference whether your units are fighting or not, the cost is the same. It is of course completely unrealistic) and, mainly, the need to finance the wars was so acute that the emperors decided to "seize many municipal revenues", which in the not so long run caused a sharp decline in local productivity and a feeling of disaffection in the local elite, who no longer wanted to involve themselves in local politics, as there was no money, thus no power anymore at the local level : thus, the local elites slowly started to realize that the Imperium Romanum wasn't the end all be all anymore. By centralizing everything that could be at the time, the Empire survived the crisis of the 3rd century, but planted one more seed of the problems that would grow later.

    All the above to say that it isn't possible to emulate history in this particular regard. So gameplay is, here, more important. I think.
     
  8. primordial stew

    primordial stew Emperor

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    It's not possible to split off those territories until civIV :mischief: , and other than some text there is no indication that something so drastic happened. I'll argue that zeroing production+commerce is the best approximation for this. You still have as much territory to defend, but for this period 1/2 your cities (though with corruption it's << 1/2 of produciton) won't produce additional defenders.

    I get quite a few units out of those Aegyptian cites since they can absorb the pop hit much better than Italian cities can. The Syrian and Asia Minor cities are not as valuable until Constatinople is built, but still they add up.

    Is that enough? I don't know! It should make a pretty good hit. Tax revenue drops to 0 for all those cities, esp Alexandria. Being it has 0 corruption it alone brings in major coinage.

    Anway, after looking at the editor I see that it's a worthless argument because there's no support in civIII for obsoleting resources, and there can only be 1 resource/tile anyway.


    As for the problem of too much accumulated wealth, maybe the emporium should be removed?
     
  9. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    There is indeed no way to make a resource obsolete, nor can there be more than one per square. Which is unfortunate in a sense, cause your suggestion certainly was elegant, although it could have left us lacking.

    If we remove the emporium, we reduce the accumulation of wealth between the commerce and 225ad tech. It could help, but I think it makes more sense to keep the rise and golden age, where coin is plentiful and then make the 225ad - Diocletian period really savage. But, as I have said numerous time, we could still follow the road of : more bad resources, census becoming obsolete in 225ad as well as the bibliotheca and a C3C wonder that affects the game longer through an increase in cost of the OS-I wonder. It would certainly be easier to mod than the other plan.

    As for what happened, historically speaking, in the 3rd century, may I recommend a book, written by a strong academic, prof of history at Oxford or Cambridge : "The Fall of the Roman Empire", Peter J. Heather, 2005. It is a great overview, easy to read as it is aimed at all audiences. If you read french, this one is also quite interesting : "L'Empire Romain Tardif, 235-395", Yves Modéran, 2006.
     
  10. captain beaver

    captain beaver Civ 3 addict

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    As I was jumping from link to link after reading wiki's version of the C3C, I came upon a few interesting passages to properly mod the C3C in RFRE:

    On the C3C:
    1) With the Crisis of the Third Century, however, this vast trade network [created by the Pax Romana] broke down. The widespread civil unrest made it no longer safe for merchants to travel as they once had, and the financial crisis that struck made exchange very difficult. This produced profound changes that, in many ways, would foreshadow the character of the coming Middle Ages. Large landowners, no longer able to successfully export their crops over long distances, began producing food for subsistence and local barter. Rather than import manufactured goods, they began to manufacture many goods locally, often on their own estates, thus beginning the self-sufficient "house economy" that would become commonplace in later centuries, reaching its final form in Manorialism.

    Trade network broken? Hum... how about we obsolete the portus mercatorium, the Pharos (in Alexandria) and the Portus Carthagenis (in Carthago) by that time :D! Let's see, we could make it obsolete with the timer 175-225AD. Then, with Soldier-Emperors, you allow a new building requiring timber that allows air travel, but does nothing else and costs 6-10 upkeep. Hence, during 25 turns, all parts of the empire become self-reliant and different parts won't have access to certain luxury resources. Afterwards, you can reconnect all the splintered parts but will have less money. Moreover, by limiting the number of cities which allow air travel, you reduce the number of units that can be moved from one end of the map to the other.

    On the cities themselves:

    2) Even the cities themselves began to change in character. The large, open cities of antiquity slowly gave way to the smaller, walled cities that were common in the Middle Ages. These changes were not restricted to the third century, but took place slowly over long periods of time, and were punctuated with many temporary reversals. However, in spite of extensive reforms by later Emperors, the Roman trade network was never able to fully recover. The decrease in commerce between the provinces put them on a path towards increased insularity. Large landowners, who had become more self-sufficient, became less mindful of Rome&#8217;s central authority and were downright hostile towards its tax collectors.

    Well the pop reduction in city size is modeled by the overused land resource, althought we might always introduce a sea resource to reduce sea commerce. However, to represent the increased insularity and loss of respect for Rome's authority, how about this: make the Domus Vestalis (prebuilt in Rome as you start the game) cause 5 unhappiness in every city, 5 happiness in Rome (since Romans could hardly not respect themselves) but only with the gov absolute principate. Since Christophoros plans to introduce the previously agreed upon scheme to lower Rome's income and while forcing the player to switch to Absolute Princiate, as soon as the gov is changed, the entire empire will be "less mindfull of Rome's authority". More unhappiness = less income/less pop/more luxury slider spending/more revolts. Then, make the wonder obsolete with Constantine.
    Another thing we could do is obsolete the thermae with 225-275AD. Thus, cities that are above pop 10 will stay that way but if a city falls below pop 10, it won't be able to grow back. Plus it makes for some useless upkeep to be paid in cities with a thermae. And when the Theme improvement comes along, all greek cities will be able to grow above pop 10.

    On the people:
    3) The common free people of the cities, meanwhile, began to move out to the countryside in search of food and protection. Made desperate by economic necessity, many of these former city dwellers, as well as many small farmers, were forced to give up basic rights in order to receive protection from large land holders. The former became a half-free class of citizens known as coloni. They were tied to the land and, thanks to later Imperial reforms, their positions were made hereditary. This provided an early model for serfdom, which would form the basis of medieval feudal society.
    A colonus was a type of Roman peasant farmer, a serf. This designation was carried into the Medieval period for much of Europe. Coloni worked on large Roman estates called "latifundias" and could never leave. Latifundias raised sheep and other types of cattle. The latifundias typically used slave labor, but in some cases the land was worked by free, serf-like, tenant farmers. The tenant farmers were known as coloni (singular: colonus). The coloni farmed the land and paid rent to the owner of the latifundia. Their rent usually consisted of a portion of their harvest, labor, or money. Coloni could be hunted or flogged if they left the latifundia although technically still free. Increasing numbers of people were forced to become coloni due to the decreasing number of slaves to support the economy because of Rome's failure to win battles. Coloni became bandits, with Bulla Felix as a prime example, which further harmed the trade system.

    I don't really know what to do with that, it just seemed interesting that serfdom started with the C3C.
     
  11. primordial stew

    primordial stew Emperor

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    Yes! A good time indeed to dump the mighty ports in Carthage and Alexandria! Both of those ports reduce corruption, so just those 2 buildings expiring will cause dramatic economic & military (recruitment) degradation :clap:

    A complete breakdown of the port network (obsoleting portus mercatorium as well) would cause all those unhappy people the C3C has always been modeled as without the need for some wonder to force it.

    Two different impacts, but I do think this will really nail the C3C quite eloquently.
     
  12. World Destroyer

    World Destroyer Chieftain

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    I think only the Alexandrian Pharos and portus mercatorium should go obsolete with with the 175-225 timer tech (You'll see later why I don't think the Portus Carthagenis should go obsolete then). A new air travel and linked trade network improvment, discovered with Diocletian's Reform, would require Greek Goods in the city radius, and cost the amount listed above (6-10). This would simulate the further shifting importance from West to East (and forshadow the eventual abandonment of the West by the East). Now, the Justinian the Great tech (or a timer tech around that time) would then render the Portus Carthagenis obsolete (illustraiting the eventual lose of North Africa after Belisarius' brief reconquest of it from the Vandals). With no great ports connecting North Africa or Britain (and only the southern tip of Italy, where the Eastern Empire continued to have nominal control) with the East, all troop movements would have to involve ship transport or overland marching.

    What do you guys think?
     
  13. Stazro

    Stazro Prince

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    I'm not going to interfere on this thing, just wanted to say that after a while it has been time for another (short) Update.
     
  14. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    While it would be interesting to cut off the air trade, it would however have a weird effect : there regions which were the least affected by the C3C - Britannia and Africa - would be, in that case, the hardest hit, as they would lose access to barbarian, greek, oriental and, for Africa, gallic goods. While the hardest hit cities in real life would fared better.

    On the other hand, things are slowing down at my job and I will be able, to really start working on this thing this week. I will post in a couple of days a summary of changes I intend to introduce, so there's still time to convince me one way or another. Thanks,
     
  15. captain beaver

    captain beaver Civ 3 addict

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    I was downloading the Vietnam war mod from El Justo and I saw he incorporates into the dl an alternative Civ3Conquests.exe to replace the existing one. It is called the no-raze patch and works wonderfully. The AI cannot raze any cities he captures (thus we could remove some useless wonders such as Regius) and the player cannot do the same either (when you capture a city, the pop-up asking install a new governor or raze doesn't appear). However, you can still abandon cities. I think we could consider adding this as part of the dl for RFRE.
     
  16. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

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    Agree heartfully.

    @Christophoros - looking forward to that list. I still like cpt beaver's idea about C3C, it brings some innovative ways to recreate the mess it was. Britannia having seceded could have been in a pretty chaotic situation as well, even if it stayed prosperous.
     
  17. Christophoros

    Christophoros Chieftain

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    No, not the promised list, although it is ever nearer, but a novel idea for the C3C. Having read 3 books on the subject in the last week or so, I think we can sum up the effects and problems in 4 points : 1 - barbarian invasions 2 - the secessions, insurrections, depositions and emperors changes 3 - pests and diseases 4 - inflation and related economical problems.

    Although it was, historically speaking, the major cause of problems, there is not much we can do about the barbarian invasions in the 3rd century. There are already unit spawning wonders for the Germanics, Goths and Persians and we cannot, unfortunately, force the AI to declare war at a certain date.

    But, for the other 3 points, there is one way to simulate in a very satisfying way all three of them : A government. Here is a way to simulate, very simply, all the problems of the 225-285 period. Instead of using very complex schemes like the one created by CB and perfected by me, or a number of bad resources, improvements becoming obsolete... (which can be overly complicated and very difficult to fine tune to the desired effects) the C3C will work like this :
    The "C3C" tech will make available an eponymous wonder and government form. (if we cannot add another government form due to a number limit, we will simply replace the useless Roman Monarchy, as it only exists to allow the player to go in civil war and should never be used) The C3C wonder will cost a lot, say 500 shields, will be required to build a spaceship part and will require the C3C government.

    This C3C government will be very bad in order to simulate the great chaos and political problems of the period. It will have a very high corruption and the "standard tile penalty" and "forced resettlement" boxes will be ticked. It will also have a higher unit support cost, like 12. So the income will drop a great deal, the army support cost will double, the population will decrease 3 times (once when you first enter civil war, once when you choose the C3C government and once more when you enter civil war to choose Absolute principate when you reach Diocletian) and it will be pure chaos ! And it will be very simple to implement.

    The C3C wonder itself will have no effect on the game other than to allow the building of a specific spaceship part. (should the government not prove harsh enough, we could always give it a bad effect, but I doubt it shall be necessary). The Soldier emperors tech will still allow the building of OI-S (it will have a very low cost, won't require anything and will still be obsolete by 375ad), but that wonder will no longer make people happy : it will only double city defense and spawn Merc Legio.

    @CB : we will include the no raze patch.
     
  18. jlvfr

    jlvfr King

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    This mod does have a big problem: the more realistic it gets, the harder for the player it is! :lol:

    Let's face it, Rome DID colapse. So, if the mod is as faithfull to history as possible, sooner or latter we'll loose all money+recruits necessary, while the oposition gets stronger and stronger...

    It becomes a race, not to win, but to see who lasts longer...:sad:
     
  19. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

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    Hey, I have no problem with that :cool: This always has been what I had in mind for it.
     
  20. jlvfr

    jlvfr King

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    So... you like to torture us?... :lol:
     

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