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Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

  1. Hrafnkell

    Hrafnkell Alheithinn

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    I avoid anything that reduces happiness. Rome has enough trouble early on, being in a virtually endless war. I have no need to "improvements" that piss off the populace. You can't take advantage of increased production if the city is burning down,and I've lost so many improvements during unrest that I hate to think about it.
     
  2. minke

    minke Chieftain

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    It should be noted that this is not an "easy" game lol. I had to reload a million times just to avoid being completely destroyed with the Dictator Level. Consul was fine though but still hard, and challangeing.
     
  3. Asclepius

    Asclepius AWOL

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    I found that the best way to control unhappiness is to have an early and violent war against Carthage (Thanks, Randy!) Make sure to conquer Sardinia, Corsica, Carthaginian Sicily and especially Palma before suing for peace. (The free Funditores in Palma will deny Carthage free cash and will later upgrade to an essential stack of archers which are ordinarily too costly to build.) When you have Carthage at the negotiating table, demand slaves (as well as a stack of Gold). This will allow Roma to build the Circus Maximus much earlier than normal for an extra two smiley faces in Roma and one everywhere else.

    So far I think 0.9 is well balanced at the start. Not too difficult but also not too easy. Pyrrhus wont cause too much trouble as long as he is destroyed immediately. Tarentum and Croton can then be invested in the next 2 or 3 turns.

    In my game it is now 210 BC, Illyria, Trans Alpine Gaul, the Western Greeks, Achea and all Carthaginian island possessions have all surrendered to the might of Rome. I'm now preparing to invade Iberia and my only problem is a lack of cash.

    After completing Second Punic War and with 68 supported units on the map I'm losing 100 gold per turn to achieve Latifunda in 12 turns. By the time I get to Education I'm going to be broke. I can't be militarily successful with any less legions or conscripts, so this is a bit difficult to achieve a balance. I think making the conscripts (Miles socius) support-free is too much of an advantage for the player though.

    I haven't had any of the problems reported with too many pirates, but then Illyria and the Carthaginian den fell quickly. Also, if Roma can engineer a quick naval victory to get the corvus equipped galley as soon as possible then domination is assured. I would even suggest tuning the "corvus" spawn rate down to 1 every 4 or 5 turns, as 1 every 3 is way too many (also because they cost too much to support!).
     
  4. Hrafnkell

    Hrafnkell Alheithinn

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    I went back and tried my newest game at Praetor level and I've not come close to having those successes. I normally conquer Lilybaeum first, and then if I survive the barrage of Carthaginian amphibious counter attacks, and assuming my ships survive the regular pounding by Carthaginian naval units and pirates, I go for Carales, because that is the base they use to pound Lilybaeum with their sorties. I then take Corsica out with my second consular army, from Pisae, while the first army marches up Sardinia (or hops to the north on the ships) and takes out Olbia.

    This does not end the threat to Sicily, as I've been invaded numerous times from N. Africa after this point, necessitating a large garrison there, though I usually do not return my consular armies to the island. By now, Carthage has generally invaded northern Italy, and one of my armies has to return quickly to the Po valley to combat these invaders. Once their army is destroyed, I sometimes face swarms of mercenaries who further occupy my time.

    I agree that Palma would make an ideal next target for Rome. Those slingers are a pain to root out if you let them go too long, and they'd make a nice addition to the Roman armies. But I've yet to find a way to invade Palma without losing my invasion force, unless I've had one of the formerly Greek or Carthaginian cities on the Spanish coast to operate from. It's too long a sea voyage with all the enemy ships. But perhaps it's only been bad luck so far. But in my current game, even after conquering ALL of Carthaginian Spain AND Palma, Carthage did not sue for peace. I was in Africa and had conquered Hippo Regius before they sued for peace. By now, I was so close to victory that I laughed it off and finished destroying them. The war, as I said in my earlier post, lasted 100 years. During that time, I also fought off a Macedonian invasion and Samnite incursions, and later on, a massive Aetolian invasion of the heel of Italy, which led to the loss and destruction of Tarentum.

    The pirates are much less of a menace, but I would not reduce Corvus production. If it's too costly, disband them. Simple expedient there. For my part, I ended the war with a fleet of 10 triremes and 5 corvus. The improved corvus is still barely a match for the better defense strength ships, and they die readily enough, so it was not easy keeping a fleet of them in being, and the triremes they capture when they win have to gang up on the enemy like bees on a wasp to win a battle.

    So far, .9 is an improvement, though I still have trouble believing a marginal Greek colony like Massilia (not to mention the little city states in Spain) could field a large enough army to not only invade Italy but conquer Pisae and threaten Ariminum. Historically, Massilia barely hung onto its freedom in the face of Gallic might and early turned to Rome for help. It would be better, I think, if some of these marginal Greek city states had units without movement points (as LouLong did with the Germans in one of his scenarios) so that they can defend themselves but not mount ridiculous invasions that historically they did not have the resources or manpower (or inclination) for.

    I'd also eliminate the alliance between eastern and western Greeks. There is no historical basis for it. Rome was not obliged to fight Athens when it fought Syracuse, for instance, nor did it face in consequence an invasion of N. Italy from Greek cities in Spain and southern Gaul as a consequence. Of course, I'm playing RFRE to enjoy the simulation, not as a game to win, so the historical accuracy means a bit more to me, and from my experience, these piddling little cities still wield far too much power.
     
  5. loki1232

    loki1232 Loki

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    The one problem with moving down the corvus spawn rate is that some ppl (like me) often don't get an elite naval unit until fairly late due to bad luck. I would personally like to see some way of removing that luck and forcing Rome to capture some place first, but that's just my opinion.

    I must say that I agree with Hrafnkell in that I prize historical accuracy over winning.
     
  6. Hrafnkell

    Hrafnkell Alheithinn

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    In 2 out of 3 games, I was able to build the Roman naval wonder only once because I was unable to get an elite naval unit. Most of them died well before achieving that status.

    I also wonder, though this probably was previously discussed, why the Samnites are even in the game as an idependent force. By 282 (before the game begins) the Samnite League had been defeated and were allies of Rome, and Rome therefore had control over all Italy south of the Poe and excepting the Greek city states to the south (this is according to the Roman historian Livy).

    Certainly, the Pyrrhic War does not justify Samnite independence:

    Unless I am missing something, nothing justifies the independent existence in Italy of a Samnite, much less a Greek state. And if Magna Graecia would be allied with anyone, it would make more sense to make it Achaia, since Tarentum was a Spartan colony and had always depended (until Sparta's power was broken during and after Alexander's reign) upon Spartan military assistance, not Athenian.
     
  7. Asclepius

    Asclepius AWOL

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    I think it is a inaccurate to call the Samnites defeated. Without wishing to extend the game any more into Roman pre history, I think the portrayal of Croton and especially Tarentum as hostile is appropriate. Like you I enjoy this scenario for its historicity but this is still a game and as such compromises must be made. However, in the case of Tarentum it was the demos of Tarentum which called for Pyrrhus to come to its aid. The equites of the southern cities may have been allied with Rome but the mass of the working population certainly weren't. The game starts in 275, quite accurately, with Pyrrhus outside Beneventum (which was near Neapolis in the game), it is then up to the player to ensure that hostile Tarentum falls to the Romans "on time" in 272, as happened in reality.

    The same applies to Bovianum which isn't an entirely accurate portrayal of Roman control but it does show the underlying resistance from the Samnite tribes.
     
  8. Hrafnkell

    Hrafnkell Alheithinn

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    I said nothing of Magna Graecia. THe Samnites were defeated by 282 and this has nothing to do with Greece or Magna Graecia, as Tarentum, during the Samnite Wars, remained carefully neutral, missing it's best opportunity pre-Pyrrhus to see Rome defeated.

    Obviously, beginning when it does, Croton and Tarentum being part of Magna Graecia are fine. I argued earlier in the thread FOR the inclusion of Pyrrhus, given the starting date. During Pyrrhus' invasion, the Roman alliance held firm and no cities went over to the King of Epirus. And as you say, Pyrrhus' location at start is perfectly fine.

    But there was no real resistance to Rome from the Samnite tribes, even when Pyrrhus came on the scene. He found himself woefully lacking in Italian allies and there was no Samnite rising against Rome. Bovianum was a city allied to Rome, not part of Magna Graecia and certainly not hostile to Roman interests - it retained its alliance with Rome throughout the Pyrrhic episode. The level of Samnite resistance would be better portrayed by a couple of Samnite units beginning the game in the hills, but without a city.
     
  9. Hrafnkell

    Hrafnkell Alheithinn

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    III. RESULTS OF THE SAMNITE WARS

    Rome's Position in Central Italy.—The great result of the Samnite wars was to give Rome the controlling position in central Italy. The Samnites were allowed to retain their own territory and their political independence. But they were compelled to give up all disputed land, and to become the subject allies of Rome. The Samnites were a brave people and fought many desperate battles; but they lacked the organizing skill and resources of the Romans. In this great struggle for supremacy Rome succeeded on account of her persistence and her great fortitude in times of danger and disaster; but more than all else, on account of her wonderful ability to unite the forces under her control.

    Increase of the Roman Territory.—As a result of these wars, the Roman territory was extended in two directions. On the west side of the peninsula, the greater part of Campania was brought into the Roman domain; and the Lucanians became the subject allies of Rome. On the east side the Sabines were incorporated with Rome, receiving the partial right of citizenship, which in a few years was extended to full citizenship. Umbria was also subdued. The Roman domain now stretched across the Italian peninsula from sea to sea. The inhabitants of Picenum and Apulia also became subject allies.

    The New Colonies.—In accordance with her usual policy, Rome secured herself by the establishment of new colonies. Two of these were established on the west side—one at Minturnae at the month of the Liris River, and the other at Sinuessa in Campania (map, p. 80). In the south a colony was placed at Venusia, which was the most powerful garrison that Rome had ever established, up to this time. It was made up of twenty thousand Latin citizens, and was so situated as to cut off the connection between Samnium and Tarentum.

    Outlines of Roman History
    by William C. Morey, Ph.D., D.C.L.
    New York, Cincinnati, Chicago: American Book Company (1901).[/quote]
     
  10. Hrafnkell

    Hrafnkell Alheithinn

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    My pardon for the messed up quote box in the previous post...I could not get back in to correct it.
     
  11. Still-Smokin

    Still-Smokin Chieftain

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    Is it just me or does the patch link not work? Whenever I click on it, it just opens up a new window and displays a seemingly endless stream of nonsensical text and characters.
     
  12. loki1232

    loki1232 Loki

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    Why don't you just move the game start back another 25 years?

    Also, could you add civpedia entries for the roman tech? It could tell the player what to do at each point. ei: In the first Punic War Rome conquered The medditerranean islands...
     
  13. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

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    The link is working right now. Try again!
     
  14. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

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    Other stuff:

    @Minke - Armies joining cities? Is that true for everyone? If yes, it must be caused by the fact you have legion in the army. But armies themselves have not the 'join city' flag checked and no pop cost, this is really strange. Not an easy game at dictator eh? Game has been tested all along at the consul level, so you better start there!

    @All - What is wrong with the Miles Socius' support? In v0.9, they are supposed to require support! Check in the editor, the flag is checked. I am going to have to start a game and seek that out.

    @Cpt. Beaver - The pirates have already been reduced in this version! Might be not enough yet...

    @Randy - grrrr. Hear me: uninstall RTW and get back to work! Test 0.9, update your walkthrough ;) Seriously enough, I wish I had time trying that RTW sometime.

    @Blitz - Agreed, the late legion line units will keep building roads and forts. I will increase the Faber Arxis building speed by 50% but slightly reduce its spawning rate

    @Vbraun - Did the Gauls attack you, or were you impetuous enough to invade them? Now, why giving up ;) Draft some Miles Socius, and let them die trying to take your cities. It sounds like you could use a great general like Marius, though!

    @Hrafnkell
    Glad to hear you like v0.9!
    For the samnites, I do not have time to start an in-depth historical argument whether they were defeated or not: just answering to all that great feedback already take too long! My understanding is that Rome got Campania and the west coast of Italy once the Samnite were defeated, while they never really controlled the hills, the core of the Samnite country, which I can agree, was not always hostile to Rome, although I wouldn't say they were in friendly terms. The Samnites had been defeated by 275BC, yes, but they did rise againts Rome again too. Why had Sulla to walk south and risk everything in Rome? To fight off the Samnites who were occupying a large part of Campania. The presence of the Samnites in the game have nothing to do with Pyrrhus (which was added well after the Bovianum, as you can remember). The point of having them annoying you all along is to represent the fact that Rome's control of its Southern holdings was still far from absolute. Having an unified italy in 272BC would be as unhistorical than seeing Bovianum as a Greek city. Now, I am flexible on this, but I think it is a working feature, which add flavor, and historically ok. Let me know.

    I will follow you for the Greeks and remove the locked alliance between Athens and the greek colonies. I will also reduce Magna Graecia aggressivity

    @Loki
    Latifundia will be made a bit more interesting. I removed the culture loss ( and updated the pedia, they have no upkeep cost for a while actually). So, it increases tax by 50%, but cause 1 citizen unhappy, and add some to slave unrest risk. I believe, like the Census, this is a worthy improvement for medium/large cities, which is needed to maintain a large army. In smaller settlements, they are useless (which is a bit funny, since we are speaking of farming estates ;)).

    I understand that sometime getting an elite naval unit is hard (it is indeed all about luck, which in Civ is very frustrating). You have to manage your two veteran triremes in Neapolis very cautiously and not risk them in open sea. If not at war with Carthage, fight off pirates. In any case, first weaken the enemy through 'bombardement', then finish them off with a veteran trireme. You should get the elite status and unlock the wonder quite quickly.

    @Asclepius
    Have you noticed there is no longer 25t advances (except the ones got through the Dictator wonder). Rome has now the possibility to lag a bit above the 12t treshold without getting historically too late. If you find your economy can't sustain your army and research, you can still put a few cities at producing Opes (Rome, Capua makes a difference), or blackmail some neighbours... It is difficult to strike a balance with the economy while modding too, but I think nonetheless that this 30 free units works acceptably throughout the game. Let hear more feedback before deciding of a final spawning rate for Mare Nostrum.
     
  15. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

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    @Gringoesteban

    I can't start your game (our respective installation paths for the mod are different yet again!) and looked at your biq without seeing anything wrong. So I ask the folks around here, in case they can help or have experience something similar:

    I am fearing this has nothing to do with the mod (and then I can't fix it!), but that the problem rather is with Civ itself, or with poor Gringo's computer settings. In any way, I am clueless right now. Anyone can help? :(
     
  16. Gunner

    Gunner Emperor

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    About the Samnites, they caused serious problems for the Romans for quite a while up until the end of the Italian Revolt around 82-81 BC.

    I'm sorry I havent had any time to test. I've been really quite busy with work and everything. I plan on starting a game in a week or two and trying to do it to completion.
     
  17. Asclepius

    Asclepius AWOL

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    I don't want to get into a "Yes, No" argument as I doubt if either of us have time for that. However, I can't leave this comment unanswered. Pyrrhus was in Italy *at the Tarrantines request* (in 281 BC) after having sunk a Roman fleet in 282 and having expelled the Romans from Thurii. When the Romans protested, their envoy was publicly insulted in the theatre of Tarentum which caused the Romans to declare war on Tarentum. Obviously, Tarentum remained very neutral! It wasn't until Pyrrhus had returned to Greece that the Romans were able to defeat Tarentum (in 272) and control southern Italy by building colonies at Beneventum in 268 and Aesernia in 263.

    If there was no resistance to the Romans after 282 why does the Capitoline fasti list at least ten victories over Samnites and Lucanians between 282 and 272?

    Anyway, apart from the historical argument, as Pink said, it is about representing resistance as a game mechanic. The new start to the scenario requires the player to put in some effort in subjugating the south of Italy instead of having an even more unrealistic "unified Italy" in 275 BC.
     
  18. Asclepius

    Asclepius AWOL

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    No I hadn't! :blush: I shall stop wasting money and slow down a bit then... ;)
     
  19. gringoesteban

    gringoesteban Senior Consul

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    After my crashes to the desktop on v0.82 and v0.85, I was going to take a break and play Rome Total War this weekend, but I guess I am hooked on RFRE because I spent virtually all weekend playing v0.9.... Given all the time and effort I've put in to RFRE, I cannot quit until I build that spaceship at least once!

    The beginning of the game is very easy. I rolled right over Pyrrhus and Sicily/Sardinia/Corsica and Cisalpine Gaul and the Ilyrians. I only lost a handful of units in my early rampage. This is despite the fact that I lowered Velite attack from A5 down to A4 and raised the shield cost of a Velite 10% from 30 to 33 (although in my revision Velites cost zero pop). I also set the Miles Socios attack at A5; I believe that is a point lower than the default setting. In any event, my first four wars were a cake walk.

    Starting with two Legio Consularis Armies with blitz makes a huge difference. I credit my easy victories to them. The unit is so powerful that the Player should start with one (1) Legio Consularis Army at the beginning of the game rather than two. Or else turn off the blitz ability for that type of Army. I was unstoppable until I lost both Armies in a disasterous beach landing in Eastern Turkey.

    Pirate ships have not been an issue in v0.9. This is a nice change from v0.8x. I see them occasionally, but with a medium-sized, economically-supportable navy I can control the seas.

    I like the new Corvus stats, but the Mare Nostrum Wonder spawns them too quickly. At one point, I had ten (10) Corvus units. Maybe add a turn to the Mare Nostrum spawn rate.

    The Wonder that generates the Legio Scipius Army has the same splash as the Mare Nostrum Wonder.

    If I remember right, the "detect invisible" ability for both the Velites and the Merc Legion has been turned off for v0.9. Why was this -- Velites were Roman (or at least allied Italian) troops, and the Merc Legion with its pathetic A6/D6/M1 stats will be fighting powerful, multi-move, HN/invisible barbarian units later in the game, so it seems that both the Velite and the Merc Legion should be able to detect invisible. Based on my previous games which went through ca. 375 AC, detect invisible is vital to the Player's survival in later years.

    Is the Player supposed to be able to build the Bible Wonder? In the last three games that I have played, I have been unable to conquer Jerusalem until after the expiration of the Wonder which is the pre-requisite to the Bible Wonder (sorry, the name escapes me right now). Being unable to construct that Wonder leaves me unable to write the Bible. Would it be possible not to have an expiration date for the Wonder that is the pre-requisite to the Bible? That way, if the Player is busy fighting elsewhere on the map and takes Jerusalem in the mid-second century AC like I did, they will not miss out on the Bible Wonder. Of course, writing the Bible in 175 AC is a little late historically, but doing so would not disrupt game play.

    Tech research runs right on time in v0.9. In my current game, I am at the end of the second century AC and I am researching Crisis of the Third Century, so I should discover that tech around the appropriate date.

    However -- to reiterate an issue that I brought up with v0.8x -- the Player simply does not have enough turns to expand the Empire before the Crisis of the Third Century. It is 190AC and I have not yet invaded Britain or destroyed Pontus or taken out Dacia or engaged Persia. I have been at war continually for almost the entire game, at times engaged on two or even three fronts, crushing all my foes (with the exception of a border skirmish with the Germans, who proved quite difficult, and I incurred substantial losses just to take their southeastern-most city), but I cannot keep up the required expansion pace.

    The time it takes to ferry troops from one geographic region to another means that it takes to many years to re-orient one's Army. For example, with five space movement on land and transports moving four spaces on the sea, it would take say 15+ turns and 30+ years to get a unit from say Jerusalem to London. (As a point of reference, it only took the pioneers six months to walk across the entire land mass of the continental United States!) I am not suggesting that a Player would want to send a unit from the Middle East to Britain, and I do not want to change RFRE movement rates on land or sea. Rather, I am pointing this out as a Civilization software constraint that we need to work around. WE SHOULD ADD 50 TURNS (and zero years) TO RFRE PRIOR TO CRISIS OF THE THIRD CENTURY TO GIVE THE PLAYER MORE TIME TO EXPAND. Note that I added 25 turns and no years to my modification of v0.9 but it still wasn't enough.

    Adding fifty "turns" would mean that we need two more Tech_Timer techs. This can be done easily at the point the year counter switches from one year per turn to two years per turn. The BIQ is simple to modify so that we do not add extra "years" when we add "turns". To keep the Roman technologies on track, we should eliminate the two free tech bonus from the Perpetual Dictator Wonder. (Of course, that Wonder would have to be modified to do something different). With this change, the Player would have to spend 50 extra years researching Dictator and Age of Augustus(?) since both those techs are set at the maximum 25 turns research time, and that would keep the Roman research timeline on track.

    All that being said, v0.9 is the best version so far. Pink, you are very close to having a finished product!
     
  20. edboltz

    edboltz Chieftain

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    After getting overrun by Scythians in my first game, I started over and ignored history: After capturing Tarentum, et al. my troops held en masse to the steppes, got a Right of Passage with they Scythians, built roads into all of their marshland terrain square cities, and fought back from East to West.

    With them destroyed I stocked up on ballista along the Central Europe front with Germany to pound Praedators as they approached.

    I knuckled under to every threat from Carthage as I consolidated through Greece, Dacia and then Gaul (enlisting the Britons to finish them off).

    Finally paid through the nose for a ROP with Germania, again built roads into their towns, and wiped them out.

    With Europe safe, Carthage was, even with tons of Barking Elephants, a cake walk. (A 40 ballista SOD work wonders) as has been Asia Minor.

    In 400 AD, the Parthians are terrifying with massive piles of horsemen, but I plan to go Byzantine on them and grind them up as they try to get through the mountains into Asia Minor. Aegyptus and Nabatea are still around, but not much of a worry. The Britons hold the British Isle completely, except for a square or two, which when everyone else is ground out, will form the foothold for a staging ground.

    Obviously, not a historical approach.
     

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