Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

[pinktilapia]

@Mungman

Wlecome back. In the normal RFRE (275BC, 125BC), the animus barbari (A99, D99, HP13) can only be spawned through a small wonder. The small wonder can only be built in the capital. So, yes, the capital city of each barbairan city which survives until 100AD or so will be unconquerable. The 375AD map (check the last patch Loki!) has more of these units around, but I guess since you are supposed to be stuck on defensive, it doesn't matter

Cheers folk!

 

[primordial stew]

.942 on consul:

The war with Pontus was a big time sink. I got 3 cities, but it took forever to get even that far. We used to be able to buy some of his cities, but not now.

In the 1st Ptolemies war I finally took Tyrus, Jerusalem, Gaza, and Pelsium in the east, and Berenice, and Cyrene in the west. Most of the time was spent beating down the huge stacks of them. The 2nd war followed as soon as my troops healed. War weariness hit right away, but the war only lasted 4 turns.

It's 79AD. The 1st war with Iberia ended a few turns back, and I was shifting forces for the 1st Gallic war, but then the Persians sent 100+ of the Hippox horsemen at me. Luckily there were enough troops around (most velites) to kill the lead stack of 30, but bigger stacks are coming. I'm expecting a big stack of elephants to show up as well, but just Hippox so far. Hopefully the armies have flown in early enough to stabilize the front. The Persions could easily overrun Palmyra, but haven't even tried yet. The good news is that the masses of Persians are no longer just roaming around the desert.

Only 4 turns till SiegeEngineering, but I only hold 1 of the limes cities. After Persia is beaten back, it's either Dacia or Gallia. No Pax Romana for me!

The portus migrae was finally built in ~60AD, I had forgotten about building it sooner A couple of those ships would really help out now.


The new miles auxilarius are now useful They do shoulder some of the burden, even in defense. The old ones were too weak, so all the legions would get killed before these troops got picked. Now they help shield the broken legions from destruction! I like the Pirate paratroopers too!!

The servus seditous are a big pain! They roam around italy guarded by a hoplite pillaging the iron ore! Arghhh!!! Historically they were a big pain, so I suppose this is ok. They actually attacked Roma, but my last garrison held out!

The biggest problem still is that Carthage has too many units. This throws off the delicate timetable. I tried to ally with Numidia, but they had no interest. It sounds like this is what is intended to happen, but they have to be willing.

 

[primordial stew]

81AD. There are 76 Hippoxs next to Antioca, another 15 in range, and then 52 more coming!!!!! Oh, and 4 of the barbarian Eqaes Pra.. showed up as well.. Counterattacks cut them down to 56, but there are only 13 units in Antioca, many of which are velites.

83AD. Legio Ceasarus II died, but both Legio Scipios survived on thier last point! The 2 garrisons, 5 legions, and 1/2 the velites died along with the numidian horsemen. With the fresh troops there are still as many as last turn next to the city, but my troops are spent. We need the bomb!

Looks like I'll have to reload from just after the conquering Egypt. It will take the entire army to handle this! This fixed Persia requires serious attention now.

 

[captain beaver]

Just found a "bug". Since we can now ally with about every greek civ, they are serving as "mercenaries" in the roman republic. I declare war for example on Dacia, and then pay about 100g to macedonia and then every other civ follow in my holy crusade . I just have to declare war on them afterwards to get the territories which will probably be lightly defended . Works every time. Satisfaction garantee or you can backstab them while most of their troops is away and make a quick blitz. At the same time, it tins out the number of troops the greek civs have, something which has always been phenomenal for those small civ.
Great plan to speed up the expansion rate while minimizing casualties.

In other civ news, now that most buildings require 1g of maintenance, the early parts are quite difficult. Before, I could run with a little 5g surplus every turn, but for the first 70 turns, I ran a deficit ranging from -3g to -75g (at the worst of the second punic war, i was engaged on 3 fronts : Illyria, Spain and Africa. This caused a lot of war weariness so I had to spend on luxury). After conquering Cartage, however, things are looking good as I am running a 15 g surplus, Dacia is being slowly conquered by SOD of phalanxs and Numidia is just about to go down with only 1 conquerable city left. Then, on to the greek city states! (new smilie?)

 

[captain beaver]

Well everything went right. I waited for the end of the alliances with the greeks city-states and then went on rampage mode. Since most of their troops was lost somewhere in faraway Dacia, their cities were only defended by 4 praesidium and up to 2 hoplitai on the capital. This is a side effect from the praesidium. The AI sees it as a def unit so it leaves the city empty except for the 4 praesidium. It becomes easy to conquer because their hp is very low compared to the legio.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

Looks get, in queue to DL the big file right now. Currently downloading the patches. Well done, this looks like a great mod!!!

 

[pinktilapia]

@p.stew: so, should I conclude the cost of these Hippoxs should be increased?
@cpt. beaver: this is so PATHETIC Beat the Greek in a regular fight!
@Tank Guy: help to keep the thread alive in these difficult days (Civ4 is looming) and give us feedback!

 

[primordial stew]

@p.stew: so, should I conclude the cost of these Hippoxs should be increased?
@cpt. beaver: this is so PATHETIC Beat the Greek in a regular fight!
@Tank Guy: help to keep the thread alive in these difficult days (Civ4 is looming) and give us feedback!

Probobly, but I was running behind, so everyone accumulated more strength that they should, so hopefully someone else (capt beaver?) makes it there soon with a more typical game. Without them roaming the desert endlessly we actually have to fight them all now, but even masses of the 7A ones isn't overwhelming. Masses of the 10A type is completely different however!

Pretty sure my mistake was a ROP agreement with the Galic Celts. I had troops next to the 3 cities, and waited till the ROP ended before the 1 turn conquest. Unfortunately it seems that the AI still considers it breaking the treaty, so that's why no one was willing to ally with me.

The only change I will suggest for now is adding the 2 port wonders to the timeline to help remind forgetfull players and new ones to build them!!!

 

[pinktilapia]

Quickly before leaving for the South again and because it is quite late here,

a NEW PATCH is uploaded(0.95), which technically could be called 1.0 if not for a new Hannibal unit which was quite messy to set up and still need some testing (that's where you folks fit in).

ok, main changes I can remember of are:

- Hannibal so, a unique unit, quite monstruous, which hopefully will run rampage throughout Italy and yet not quite take Rome

- Completely revised navy units; it was time to do so, the concept was more than a year old. It will make more sense now.

- More turns early on! And less later on of course Hopefully you will finish off carthage in due time now....

- Revised Barbarians allies units (Miles Alarius Celticus/Germanicus; Eques Alarius Celticus/Germanicus), the old system with the romanized/non-romanized cities didn't work coz of a resource bug (connecting a horse gave you the Rome resource, bugging the whole thing). Now, they are only spawn by improvements, and will need you to upgrade them.

- Many others

Map cosmetic changes (the Agri decumates, etc.); changes according to recent feedback (higher Parthian unit costs, etc.)

Ok, this need a bit of testing more, please do it, and 1.0 will be out before November. At last !

Unless you have more to add to it of course

 

[Luthor_Saxburg]

Ok, this need a bit of testing more, please do it, and 1.0 will be out before November.

I am anxious to try this Mod\Scenario, but I think I'll wait for version 1 as my slow network connection only allows huge DL's once in a while.

 

[captain beaver]

argh!
another patch! And I'm not even close to finishing my current game. Oh well, looks like .95 is going to wait.
And a little something to report. It looks like the added praesidium are completely destroying the AI def strategy. I have sent the Macedoninans in Dacia. They actually conquered and killed eveything except the 3 northern cities which I took with my 3 (yeah, you heard me Pink, 3 ) scipio armies and a lone city in the east still in Dacia's hands which is probably beseiged by a couple phalanxes. The problem is that when I attacked Macedonia (after waiting for the end of the alliance), on 3 of their 5 starting cities, they had only their 4 praesidium. Quick victory there. Another one didn't have any praesidium but something like 12 phalanxes. Luckily for me that was where I had my main invasion forces of 1 scipio, 2 consular armies, 10 legios, 6 velites and 12 balista so it fell in 2 turns. I don't know how they lost the praesidium since they haven't been in a war with any of the greek states and it's the city of Larissa. Maybe when the AI goes bankrupt, it disbands the least effective unit, which is the praesidium since it has 3 hp, 4 def and immobile. But the weird thing is that they defend more the cities without praesidium then those with them. And those cities were the most important ones of the macedonian empire. They only have their capital left now so I'm gonna look at the defenses there to see if there is 4 praesidium or hordes of phalanx.
The city of pergamum too has the same problem. They have no praesidium left but instead they have 11 hoplitai, 2 eques and 3 whatever. The cost of using propaganda is astronomical too : 3900g. The capital, Rhodes, is only of 1500g. And I "hired" them as mercenaries along with the syrians against Pontus, so normally, they would have sent out most of their units. Well, this is weird. Anyone being an expert on civ AI behavior could explain?

 

[captain beaver]

hehe whoops !
Some interesting side effect of using the alliances to thin out the ennemy : Pontus has been completely crushed by Syria as they took all of their cities except 3. Persia has declared war too on Pontus. Pergamum is scratching is butt. The Galatians were able to save their lives by a quick peace after Syria razed one of their city. Syria raized 2 of Pontus cities. Pontus did a sneak attack on my Dacian holdings from Chernonesus. A stack of 14 units just appeared near Sarmetezuga.
To top it all, it seems that Syria has become stronger since it can now support a lot more units. I wanted a stalemate with few city exchange! Not a general war of extermination in Anatolia and the propable loss of my Dacian cities.
And on other fronts, better news. A war is raging between Germania and Gallia with the winner unclear as no city has exchanged hands yet. Numidia will never recover or be able to build an army. Macedonia is almost out of the picture.
I have done investigate city on the numidian capital and this is the result. They are making 7gpt, 3 of which are going to science. The only improvement left costing money is the capitol which has an upkeep of 5gpt. The population isn't growing because they are always building numidian horseman which cost 1 pop and which can't even cross the ancestral forest. Conclusion : recovery = improbable, attacks = unthinkable, barbarian invasion = impossible

Edit -- I was able to save my Dacian cities using 2 armies that I dispatched as quickly as I could (roads built so fast travel). The AI fearing armies as much as intelligence decided to go after some workers peacefully mining close by. Happy endind for me.
BTW, I can't build miles alarius now because they upgrade to Legio Marius. I suppose that's your ressource problem Pink.

 

[primordial stew]

hehe whoops !
Some interesting side effect of using the alliances to thin out the ennemy : Pontus has been completely crushed by Syria as they took all of their cities except 3. Persia has declared war too on Pontus. Pergamum is scratching is butt. The Galatians were able to save their lives by a quick peace after Syria razed one of their city. Syria raized 2 of Pontus cities. Pontus did a sneak attack on my Dacian holdings from Chernonesus. A stack of 14 units just appeared near Sarmetezuga.

My game is the opposite (bizzaro parallel universe!), Pontus eliminated Galia and then Syria. Rampaging Persians have taken 1/2 the Egyptian cities so far.

I followed the Macedonian alliance vs Dacia route as well. Macedonia took the 2 cities along the coast, but I got the others (the Transyvanian gold had to be mine!!). This did weaken the Greeks, which is essential since those Phalanxes have almost the same stats as a legio. I left Dacia 1 city so they could shield me from some of those 8A bandits.

Galias attacked around the time they can build the eques. Germania attacked me in ~75BC, and the Goths joined in when I invaded German soil. The Goths attacked in ~30BC (while my troops were still busy mopping up Macedonia), but I kept this war isolated to them.


All in all there seems to be too much warring by the AIs. While this adds a lot of replay value, but it detracks from history (maybe it could be a mod!). Back when the AI didn't have sooo many units this stuff didn't happen much. There were some skirmishes, but typically not eliminations. Also Roman progress was easier since it didn't take so long to wade through the masses of baddies. The only good part of sooo many units is lots of slaves.

The city of pergamum too has the same problem. They have no praesidium left but instead they have 11 hoplitai, 2 eques and 3 whatever. The cost of using propaganda is astronomical too : 3900g. The capital, Rhodes, is only of 1500g.

Disease will bring the cost down!

Ok, this need a bit of testing more, please do it, and 1.0 will be out before November.

Yes, it must be finished before civ4 consumes everyone!

It will be a very interesting to see the differences if (when!) this gets converted. A single power rating, no armies, events, smart AI!!!

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

I am relaying a complaint from my cousin (who doesn't have an internet access to tell you himself). He says he was always under the impression that the Romans were able to conquer quite easily other nations. That being said, he thinks the only setting of monarch isn't accurate. He wants an easier difficulty level so as to make the game more realistic. I know, he's a pansy. (I would say worse the the mods would keep a closer eye on me, and I don't like people watching me).

 

[mTk-Away]

OK, first of all I'd like to say I really like the mod yada-yada-yada... it's the best Civ3 I've seen ever (and loses only to Thompson's LOTR mod for Civ2 in all-time Civ mod hall of fame).

The problem I'm having is that the Germanic migration stopped before it really even started!
Soon after that migration research (250 AD or something?) the German hordes started moving around the borders, and as expected, they attacked a couple of turns later. I lost a couple of town, after which I decided to pull back all my forces and build a new defensive line with fortresses around Alps. Not wantinn barbarians to take all my towns, I simply razed all the Gallia - burned cities and destroyed every 2nd road tile.
OK, everything went quite fine. I got my forced withdrawn and got workers to hills fast enough to build the fortresses... more than 5 turns pass, and not a single barbarian arrives to rob Rome... a couple of more turns pass, and Germanics come begging for peace! Now, that if something is unrealistic. I played around 20 more turns and then got angry and quit the game for the invasion flopping like that.

So, what's the problem? I believe that since there was a lot of free, neutral, land area now in France (where I razed my cities), the AI thinks there is no more need to make war.
Maybe you should create a wonder or unit for barbarians that requires Rome as strategic resource... that way, when the migration research gets researched, there would at least be some reason for the barbarian AI to aim at Italy.

I'm not sure if that works or not... just my 2 cents to get the migration back on the right track.

 

[primordial stew]

<snip>
I lost a couple of town, after which I decided to pull back all my forces and build a new defensive line with fortresses around Alps. Not wantinn barbarians to take all my towns, I simply razed all the Gallia - burned cities and destroyed every 2nd road tile.

Which version are you playing?

What happens when the cities are not razed?

Wars will always end, but they will start up again. In .94? pink added a wonder to spawn 99A units which will hopefully keep the barbarians coming. I haven't seen any posts about how this works out though.

The Romans are supposed to be overrun, so just go with it!!!! Hopefully in civ4 there will be an option to disable city razing. Sure the Romans (and others) did this, but in the game it's a problem so you just have to not consider it.


@pink: .95
Isn't Scipio too late the participate in the Punic wars now? It takes 15 turns from building the wonder, but it's 7th in the tech tree, so 275AD - ((7 * 12) + 15) = 275 - 99 = too late!!!! Scipio defeated Hannibal in 202BC. The .biq has 1 year/turn, but we would need 6 month turns somewhere to make this scheme work out.

The current tech tree looks like it was changed to limit army creation. Maybe a better way is to just create static units set in Rome. That the player can upgrade to the mobile version when the time comes? That would work for all but the last one, since Roma should be lost by then.

The new Roma garrison units require support!

Also, what it the point of allowing the triumphus before cititzenship is available? I do like Caspine Wars to allow slave cleanup. Carthage gave slaves and 45 gpt, so Roma is building Circus Maximus, thus it may be in need of some cleanup before too long. I would have prefered a city, but they wouldn't cooperate :/

 

[mTk-Away]

The version was 0.92 and I have not tested how abandoning cities affects the game in newer versions.

I don't really know how "historically correct" it is to raze your own cities that are about to get conquered, but in game terms that is #1 thing that came to my mind - saving what can be saved while causing max damage to enemy.
Evacuation of cities and burning your own farms does happen in real life, and it would be a little silly if you couldn't do it in the mod... it does have a good purpose, after all. I don't personally think it's that much of a problem.

The strange thing was that after the northern France was out of the game, the Germanics didn't show any interest in attacking Rome, even tho I had captured some of their cities (and even barbarian goods) somewhere around southern Germany. After not getting those four or so cities, they just stopped being interested of making war - and this includes every border. And they didn't even bring their troops near the borders for some 30 turns, after which I quit.
Clearly the AI needs something to aim for, and some resources that exist only in the Roman territory might just be the answer. At least AI seems to declare all kind of suicide wars just to get to some strategic resources (especially in regular Civ). The barbarians sure have hordes of troops, but no reason to really use them!

 

[captain beaver]

Clearly the AI needs something to aim for, and some resources that exist only in the Roman territory might just be the answer. At least AI seems to declare all kind of suicide wars just to get to some strategic resources (especially in regular Civ). The barbarians sure have hordes of troops, but no reason to really use them!

Well, I think Pink did put some of the meaner barbarian units requiring the Roma ressource to build them, but I'm not sure. And the wonder spawning 99 A et D units is to make the AI thinks he is stronger by making him think he has a stronger army than the Roman one. To put it simply, when the military advisor calculates who's stronger then who, it adds all of the offensive values, def values and hp quantity and the one with the biggest number is stronger and more enclined to make demands or declare war.

 

[pinktilapia]

I am relaying a complaint from my cousin (who doesn't have an internet access to tell you himself). He says he was always under the impression that the Romans were able to conquer quite easily other nations. That being said, he thinks the only setting of monarch isn't accurate. He wants an easier difficulty level so as to make the game more realistic. I know, he's a pansy. (I would say worse the the mods would keep a closer eye on me, and I don't like people watching me).

Geee guys, download the patches already! Difficulty levels are available for 6 months, since we moved from version 0.6 to 0.7. There has been tons of changes since then, and frankly I think the game in 0.6 is unplayable, at least in comparison to what we have today!

 

[pinktilapia]

OK, first of all I'd like to say I really like the mod yada-yada-yada... it's the best Civ3 I've seen ever (and loses only to Thompson's LOTR mod for Civ2 in all-time Civ mod hall of fame).

The problem I'm having is that the Germanic migration stopped before it really even started!
Soon after that migration research (250 AD or something?) the German hordes started moving around the borders, and as expected, they attacked a couple of turns later. I lost a couple of town, after which I decided to pull back all my forces and build a new defensive line with fortresses around Alps. Not wantinn barbarians to take all my towns, I simply razed all the Gallia - burned cities and destroyed every 2nd road tile.
OK, everything went quite fine. I got my forced withdrawn and got workers to hills fast enough to build the fortresses... more than 5 turns pass, and not a single barbarian arrives to rob Rome... a couple of more turns pass, and Germanics come begging for peace! Now, that if something is unrealistic. I played around 20 more turns and then got angry and quit the game for the invasion flopping like that.

So, what's the problem? I believe that since there was a lot of free, neutral, land area now in France (where I razed my cities), the AI thinks there is no more need to make war.
Maybe you should create a wonder or unit for barbarians that requires Rome as strategic resource... that way, when the migration research gets researched, there would at least be some reason for the barbarian AI to aim at Italy.

I'm not sure if that works or not... just my 2 cents to get the migration back on the right track.

I am not sure this answer the comment, but for the record there was hisotrically two main waves of invasions and the game follow that:

- 200AD-300AD (grossly): crisis of the third century with important yet short lived insasions. I think this what you experienced in your game. If the AI took some of your cities and your economy/population nosed down, then all is fine and what I wanted to simulate happened.

- 400AD onward: great invasions. These will be monstruous and should not stop until a large chunk of your empire has been run over by hordes of barbarians. The animus barbarus unit which the AI barbarian civs accumulate from the early ADs will push them in frequent wars with you, especially considering the free excellent units it will stockpile regularly.

Again, read the pedia (I know it is becoming big, but those willing to play RFRE but be willing to learn some history ), all this info is there.

Will release final patch end of this month, hopefully (but not certainly) before Civ4. CURSE you CIV4 !