Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by pinktilapia, Aug 4, 2004.

  1. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,219
    Location:
    Belgium
    Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire




    “FOR YOU TO LEAD THE MASSES, ROMAN, THAT YOU SHOULD REMEMBER – FOR THAT WILL BE YOUR MISSION – AND TO GIVE ITS RULES TO PEACE: RESPECT THE DEFEATED, DISARM THE SPLENDID”

    Virgil


    “FOR THE ROMAN OF THAT TIME, WHO WERE ACQUAINTED WITH THE GOLD OF A GLORIOUS KINGDOM, THE DISGRACE WAS TO RETURN TO THE AGE OF IRON AND RUST – AND SO IT WENT OF OUR HISTORY”

    Dion Cassius


    Welcome to this ... proposal!

    Through this mod to be, I have wished for long to create a scenario including the whole long history of the Roman Empire (excluding offtime prolongations though Byzantium for the most); from the rise of the roman republic and the Punic Wars, through the roman expansion and the eventual Imperial domination of the Mediterranean world, to the collapse of the thousand years old Rome under the combined pressure of barbarians and a complete loss of its values.

    I have tried to carry-out the mod by myself a couple of times. A lack of skills with the editor, limited time, and ever changing ideas have made these exercises somewhat fruitless. I resort to this forum, hopeful it will attract some, with interest in retracing the whole roman history in a somewhat accurate way, to help on it.

    I have recently discovered The Ancient Mediterranean MOD, and although not yet asked these brave men and women, I wish we could use both their map and graphics for some of the work ahead. I will progressively post what I have developed up to now, to encourage discussion. Let me know what you think of these.
     
  2. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,219
    Location:
    Belgium
    GAME OVERVIEW

    Here is an overview that hopefully will give you a better idea of what I want to come out with. It is based on the timeline posted below.

    A note about leaders and armies: I dislike armies in CIV3 very much. I rarely saw the AI getting one on its own and never did it use them efficiently. Please correct me if you think otherwise. In order to keep the game in balance and save the challenge, I wish to remove armies (and thus leaders) from the game. As an alternative, short lived wonders (e.g. Barca’s leadership, Scipio’s leadership, Caesar’s leadership, etc.) should generate special units generically called here leader-units, which are better off than their contemporary units and upgradeable like normal troops when new military technologies are found.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,219
    Location:
    Belgium
    CIVILIZATIONS

    EDITED on 17 AUG 04

    1. Roma
    2. Greek City States
    3. Achaïan League
    4. Etolian League
    5. Antigonids' Macedonia
    6. Pergamum
    7. Carthage
    8. Seleucides' Syria
    9. Ptolemies' Egypt
    10. Numidia
    11. Pontus (including Regnum Bosphori and its ally Armenia)
    12. Bithynia
    13. ‘Persia’ (first Parthian, then Sassanid)
    14. Celt tribes (North of Italy, France, Britain)
    15. Iberic tribes (Spain and Portugal)
    16. Germanic tribes (Germany and Danmark)
    17. Steppe nomads (includes Scythes, Sarmates, and Huns; cover all area east of Germany)
    18. Desert nomads (Sahara, Arabia)
    19. Illyrians
    20. Pirates (Crete, Cilicia)
     

    Attached Files:

  4. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,219
    Location:
    Belgium
    GAME CONCEPTS - Where I start to confuse all of you :crazyeye:

    Although the game does not allow scripted events, I have ideas of introducing these through civilization advances (wonders/units). Important examples are the migration and great invasion advances which allow the barbarian civilizations to build (upgrade) cheap strong offensive units which will flood the Empire. More subtle examples includes the roman civil war which introduce a wonder allowing larger armies that can only be built under a inauspicious government type, forcing the roman into revolutions (and troubles) for some turns. Another example is the Christian persecution during the III century, which introduce a building with negative impact on culture and happiness (more trouble) but which is necessary for building Christian improvements such as Church and Basilica.

    The advances will be mostly for Rome, the other civilized nations will be mostly on a status quo, lured to research a tech which will take forever to discover. They are given an initial advantage in the relevant fields, such as an advanced Navy for Carthage. Some civilized nations (‘Persia’ come to mind) will be able to research a few progresses which represent events (disappearance of the Parthes kingdom in favor of the Sassanids, which should attack Rome, encouraged with cheap and strong cavalry). Barbarian civs also possess a couple of progress reflecting the migrations and eventually the great invasion throughout the Empire. All these tech cost must be finely tuned to be discovered at reasonable dates. Meanwhile Rome will have serious research work to carry out. I wish to strongly limit trade of technology, through use of flavors etc. Beside, also limit damage from tech trade on gameplay by restricting most units and building to its proper civ.

    Settlers should be extremely rare (only generated through a wonder?) since all major cities will be already on the map. This will help to avoid seeing Macedonian cities in Kazakhstan. Workers will be only available to civilized nations. None for the barbarian’s civs: These will have to be adapted: low cost for units (since no mining, no building rising shield production) with no strategic resource needed. Thus, when Roman enters Gaul or Germany, they will find forest, forest and games. Forest… they will be hard to chop down, keeping the forested areas wild until the fall of Rome (mostly deforestation of northern Europe took place during the late dark age). This will also help having a good demographic balance with populated Rome, Asia Minor, Syria and Egypt.
     
  5. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,219
    Location:
    Belgium
    RESOURCES

    Strategic

    Iron (shield)
    Ore (shield)
    Wheat (trade & food)
    Timber (shield)
    Petrol (trade)
    Slaves (trade)
    Elephants (trade)
    Horse (shield)
    Jerusalem (anchor)
    Rome (anchor)
    Byzantium (anchor)

    Luxury

    Gaul produces (trade)
    African produces (trade)
    Egyptian produces (trade)
    Arabian produces (trade)
    Persian produces (trade)
    Greek produces (trade)
    German produces (trade)

    Bonus

    Wine (trade)
    Fish (food)
    Fruits (food)
    Livestock (food & shield)
    Wool (trade)
    Textiles (trade)
    Precious Ore (trade)
    Salt (trade & food)
    Dye & Purple (trade)
    Marble (trade)
    Pottery (trade & shield)
    Glassware (trade & shield)
    Olives (trade & food)

    By anchor, I intend to give these resources to their respective city, so that to allow important wonders to be built at the proper spot (e.g. Coliseum, 2nd Capital, Jesus of Nazareth).

    I also propose a somewhat different approach to luxury produces, regionally focused, without clearly identifying their nature since these regions exported many luxuries to Rome. I wish keeping the number of these low, here 7 different resources, in order to keep 'mood' improvements useful, while the cities will remain of relatively small size throughout the game (except cases like Rome or Antochia).

    Do you see any missing, or just too many of them?
    Concerning strategic resource, actually all units but archers would need iron, thus iron might have to be considered as already readily accessible (although it was not) and remove it from the strategic list? Ore, slaves, wheat are 'strategic' as a prerequisite to some important buildings (respectively the forge, the slave market and the estate).

    That will be it for today, let me know what you think and be sure I am very much open to suggestions, I wish not keep this as my mod :rolleyes:
     
  6. deo

    deo Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2004
    Messages:
    1,029
    Location:
    At my Computer
    It will be a good scenario and i think the pirates shoul be renamed to The Illyrians or Illyria. More Later...
     
  7. Rob (R8XFT)

    Rob (R8XFT) Ancient Briton Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2002
    Messages:
    10,867
    Location:
    Leeds (UK)
    There's plenty of leaderheads knocking about that you could use - I'm about to release a set that would cover the fall of Rome era and have done the Illyrians.
     
  8. Xen

    Xen Magister

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2003
    Messages:
    16,004
    Location:
    Formosa
    The Celts in Italy need to be an indipendent nation; in real life they were a cultural mix between native italliot cultures, and that of the celtic homeland
     
  9. Xen

    Xen Magister

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2003
    Messages:
    16,004
    Location:
    Formosa
    also, why is Jerusalem given the importance of Rome or Byzantium? sure, it may be the holy site for three religions today; but for the Romans it was the ass end of no where
     
  10. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Deconstructed

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2002
    Messages:
    9,020
    Location:
    Transtavia
    Xen, my opinion is that there are already enough civs here, never mind adding more.

    The impression you're giving is that Cisalpine Gauls had adapted to native conditions, and the transalpine Gauls hadn't. Well, I don't buy it, and don't think it matters either; one could split both groups further, and split every other civ in the game which didn't have historical political unity. In reality, civ3 is a crude game which cannot simulate the niceties of political history to any acceptable degree of accuracy. You might as well leave the game playable, and accept civ3 reality!

    Too many people go onto scenario threads, complain about the absence of one civ or another, pressurizing the maker into creating a scenario which no-one can play; that's OK if everyone has 10Ghz computers...otherwise, move the thread to the history forum and forget about playable scenarios!

    Or maybe it's just me...I admit that I don't like waiting more than 1 mintue between turns...I can't tolerate it. Maybe others can. In which case, interprete this post as an individual plea on behalf of myself and those like me. :)
     
  11. Dom Pedro II

    Dom Pedro II Modder For Life

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2002
    Messages:
    6,811
    Location:
    Exit 16, New Jersey

    :confused: What's wrong with having it for a strategic resource to ensure that Jesus the Nazarene is built in Jerusalem rather than somewhere else?
     
  12. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,219
    Location:
    Belgium
    Hi folks,

    Thanks for your posts. Since I live the other side of the world, I guess it will be hard to have a dialogue in real time… Never mind.

    Let me first pick the remarks:

    Pirates: I do not love the name either, but Illyrian would be only covering a part of them (those under King Teuta), which would mean we split those into different civs, and makes Calgacus and players who like it quick unhappy. We have pirates in Crete and Cilicia as well (although, I forgot to draw the later on the map :mischief: ). At second thoughts, we may wish to have the pirates as barbarians so that they may attack everyone without having to be at war…

    R8XFT, I am looking forward seeing some of your leaderheads in our mod! A first step would be to identify the name of each civ’s leaders. The pity would be not to be able to use your nice pirate if we get this civ to be barbarians instead :sad:

    Concerning the Celts, I feel like since it is a union of tribes, these could be split indefinitely (my personal wish would be to see the bravest people of Gaul, aka Belgians, separated from the Celts! ;) ) The Aquitani were also very different from the other Celts, and the so called Germanic tribes are a atrocious mix up of Franks, Saxons, Alamans, Burgondes, Quades, Vandales, Wisigoths, Gepides, Ostrogoths and so on!. Hardly a unified civ… For the sake a gameplay, since these groups fought together versus Rome, we have to see them as unified civ. But in some instance, I agree with Xen, since the Roman conquered Cisalpine Gaul without being at war with the whole Celt group. A separation could be good to get an historical feel… Thus I would agree with a split (although hard to justify since we keep the so diversified Germans as a one group). But in any case, we should agree to keep the number of civ below a certain level, say, 20?

    Jerusalem might be a provincial colony, yet I also would like to see Jesus being crucified there rather than Roman Britain!

    More later today.
     
  13. Xen

    Xen Magister

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2003
    Messages:
    16,004
    Location:
    Formosa

    well, fact that the cisalpine gauls formed basically the same social and cultural elite that the Romans would in gaul proper, mainlyl over the natvie itallic peoples, like the etruscans who had dominated the region before the gauls, I odnt belive that the state of war ROme was at fairlly often with the cis-apline gauls existed with the trans-alpine gauls; reason enough IMO to make them seperate nations

    also, it dosent matter how many civs ar eon a map; turn legth is determine dby map size apperntlly
     
  14. Xen

    Xen Magister

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2003
    Messages:
    16,004
    Location:
    Formosa
    whats the point fo adding a resource for jesus in the first place?

    In my scenrio, thatm admitiantlly, is still in the planning stages, i plan to represent religion with three different optional techs that have wonders that represent that religion; to ensure that the player only reserches one, each tech will cancel out the other religious-techs wonders
     
  15. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,219
    Location:
    Belgium
    As I see it, the 'Wonder-Jesus' would reflect was it was, the dawn of christianism. Christianism will play a critical importance for the future of the Empire, becoming a state religion after vagues of persecution. My idea was to make polytheist improvements such as the shrine and temple, as well as buidlings like courthouse, progressivly obscelete after a special tech (say decadence) has been researched. A lot of trouble will follow for the player, reflecting (as we can, considering the game limitations) the degardation of the situation. The only way to address the issue would be to build church (shrine) and basilica (temple), requiring this Jesus 'wonder' built first.
     
  16. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,219
    Location:
    Belgium
    TIMELINE

    Here follows a timeline focused on war and troubles (that's the easy part!). I have done that lengthy work hoping it will help to build a tech tree which can reflect the main events that should happen during the game. Obviously, we will need some more on the economy, art, religion and so on.

    The Rise [272BC-27BC]

    272BC – Game starts with the peace treaty between Rome and Phyrrus of Epire, following his defeat. Rome possesses all southern and central Italy.

    264BC-227 BC – 1st Punic War. Rome gets Sicilia (but Syracuse, which remain Greek) and then Sardinia and Corsica

    229BC-228BC – Defeat of Illyrian pirates, the Illyrian coast is roman (219BC)

    222BC – Cisalpine Celts attack and are defeated, the region become roman

    237BC-219BC – Great Leaders (Barcas) in Carthage, who conquer the eastern Spanish coast, leading to

    218BC-202BC – The 2nd Punic War, with hard fight accross Italy between Carthage allied with the Celts and then Macedonia (Phillip V) versus Rome. Mutliple roman defeats first. Then come some naval success for Rome, followed by a victory in Spain. Rome gets an ally with Numidia (212 BC). Syracuse joins Carthage but is conquered by Rome (212BC), while Hannibal devastates the south of Italy. Greeks states allied with Rome attack Macedonia. By 211BC, Roman success in southern Italy versus Hannibal and great leader (Scipio) takes Spain and defeat the Carthaginian in Italy. In 204BC, war passes in Africa, and Carthage is finally defeated at Zama in 202BC. Spanish coast is Roman (and the rest will be progressively conquered in the next century). Consequences of the war: increased use of slaves in large estates, devastation of the land of Southern Italy, and disappearance of the Italian farmers.

    200BC-190BC – Stabilization and colonization of Northern Italy

    200BC -197BC – War with Macedonia-Seleucids, Rome is allied with the Greeks and Egypt. Phillip V’s power is broken

    192BC- 188BC – Rome at war versus the Seleucids (Antiochos III) allied with some Greeks (Etolia) against Egypt. Etolia is conquered; the Seleucids are split apart at the advantage of roman allies (Pergame and Rhodes), only remaining in Syria.

    171BC-168BC – Another war against Macedonia which is defeated and annexed in 148BC, together with Achaia (146BC).

    136-132BC – First revolt of the slaves in Sicilia, who are defeated

    133BC – Pergame becomes Roman pacifically

    149BC-146BC – 3rd Punic War initiated by the roman ally, Numidia. Carthage is destroyed.

    111BC-105BC – War with Numidia (Jugurtha), which is defeated and becomes Roman

    113BC-101BC – Roman defeats against Germanic invasions, leading to a reform of the army (real apparition of professional legions, using cavalry). The Roman finally defeat the invaders.

    133BC-89BC –Social unrests concerning the agrarian law

    88BC-81BC – Two wars versus Pontus (Mithridate VI) who attack Rome, but is defeated.

    88BC-82BC – Civil war at Rome between Sylla and Marius/Cinna

    74BC-64BC – Bithynia also becomes Roman. Last war versus Mithridate VI, with roman defeat first, but Pontus is finally annexed. Galatia, Cappadocia, Armenia and Judaea are under roman influence.

    73BC-71BC – Revolt of slaves (Spartacus), they are defeated.

    53BC – Wars with Parthes

    58BC-51BC – Caesar defeat the Gauls and invade Germania and Britannia, before turning back and conquering the Gauls, after defeating Vercingetorix.

    52BC-45 BC – Civil war between Caesar and Pompee and his successors, who are defeated in several campaigns. Caesar is assassinated in 44BC

    44BC-27BC – ‘Civil war’ continue between Octave, Antoine, Sextus Pompee. War with the Parthes. Octave wins, annex Egypt, and is proclaimed Augustus in 27BC.

    The Apogee [27BC-235AC]

    27BC-25BC – Galatia becomes Roman

    12BC-9BC and 14AC-16AC – Successful wars in western Germania.

    14AC-41AC – Weak Emperors

    43AC – Conquest of Southern Britannia

    46AC – Colonization of Thracia

    62AC-69AC – Trouble related to Nero

    66AC-70AC – Troubles in Palestine and conquest of Jerusalem

    74AC – Coliseum built and eruption of Vesuvius later on

    78AC – Britain conquered up to Scotland and protected by a wall

    98AC-117AC – Golden Age under Trajan, who conquer Dacia, Northern Arabia and Sinai, and defeat the Parthes (conquers Armenia, Assyria and Mesopotamia).

    117AC-138AC – Hadrien (still Golden Age?). Rome comes back to the Euphrates border, and limes are built in Britannia, on the Rhine, Danube and Euphrates. New Jewish revolt.

    138-161AC – Antonin. Limes and further reinforced. Army is strengthened by the recruitment of auxiliaries (from local populations).

    161AC-180AC – Marcus Aurelius. Fight the Parthes and occupy Mesopotamia but Steppes tribes cross the Danube (Marcomans, Sarmates, Quades) who are defeated

    180AC-192AC – Commodus, mad. Another Marcoman invasion succeed. Followed by troubles in Italy, Britannia and Africa.

    193AC-211AC – Septimus Severus. Defeat the Parthes, develop Syria and Africa. Decadence of the Senate. Defeat in Britannia.

    212 AC – Antonine Constitution. All free people get Roman nationality. Unity of the Empire. Beside, fight on the Rhine (Alamans) and the Euphrates (Parthes).

    231AC-232AC – Another invasion by Parthes and Marcomans, plus revolt of legions.

    The Migrations [235AC-375AC]

    Continuous attacks from Germanic tribes, Sarmates, Persians, Berbers, Maures, etc. Progressive implantation of Germans into roman territory.

    227 AC – New Sassanid Empire taking over the old Parthes

    235 AC-244 AC – Fight with Alamans and Persians. Germans mercenaries take more and more importance.

    250AC – First Christian persecutions

    253AC-271AC – Massive attacks from the Rhine to the Danube, while Africa is under siege by the Maure tribes. Abandon of the limes in Rhetia and Higher Rhine. Dacia is lost.

    270AC-275 AC – Aurelius put back some order by defeating Germans and revolting provinces turned into empires (Gallia, Palmyra).

    284AC-305AC – Diocletian. Division of the Empire into dioceses. Internal strengthening.

    324AC-337AC – Constantin the Great, who proclames Byzantium as the capital of the Empire. Great strengthening of the army (75 legions) and division of the Empire into 4 prefectures.

    357AC-375AC – His successors defeats Germans along the Rhine but Armenia is lost to Persia. Limes in Britannia and Rhine are consolidated.

    375AC – Huns invasions start

    The Great Invasions [375AC-568AC]

    375AC-382AC – Wisigoths defeat the Romans at Andrinople. Goths established in the Empire.

    380AC-391AC – Catholicism become state religion

    394AC-395AC – Theodose the Great. Division of the Empire in two. End of the Imperial unity. (Occident, capital Ravenna; Orient, capital Constantinople)

    401-415 AC – The Wisigoths invades Italy, are defeated but nonetheless ransom then plunder Rome, before moving to Africa then a kingdom around Toulouse.

    406AC-429AC – The Vandals cross the Rhine, go through the Gauls and Spain before crossing to Africa where to build their kingdom.

    441AC-453AC – Attila attacks Byzantium, before moving west where he is defeated at the Battle of the Catalaunic Fields by an alliance of Romans, Gauls and Germans.

    450AC-486AC – The Franks invade northern Gaul, and under Clovis, defeat the Kingdom of Syagrius.

    451AC – The Ostrogoths establish themselves in Pannonia, plunder the Balkans.

    476AC – The last Roman emperor for the Occident (Romulus Augustus) is deposed by Odoacre.

    488AC – The Ostrogoths enter Italy, defeat Odoacre and build their kingdom

    That's it, although we may want to include an additional few decades to have a chance to play Constantinople :) I did that quickly, so it is very prone to contain gross mistakes. Now, what main events do we keep in mind and how could we implement them?

    I get back to work, I mean real work :sad:
     
  17. Xen

    Xen Magister

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2003
    Messages:
    16,004
    Location:
    Formosa
    A)why limit the state religion to chrsitianity; Mithraism, the CUlt of isis, and perhaps even Zoroastranism could all have been effective state religions; if your scenario is truelly about the the "waht if", and letting people follow through on an alternate hsitory, you should let such a choice be there.

    B)as a polytheist myself, i can assure you the thougth that my religion being over bearing, decadent, and evil is not onyl wrong, but its casting as such in the modern opionion is getting rather old; my religion fell out as it wasnt centrilized enough to offer the people in charge enough control of the population, and that seems to be about it.

    C)If Jesus s there to relect christianities adoption as a state religion, then it comes well after the crucifiction fo the man jesus; a wonder more appropraiet for constatine however, would be- it would therefore be just as easy to, include my set up for optional, but inter connected cancelations of relgious techs, and wonders, so that the player can gain the benifit of a "state cult", but only has the option to gain one; or none at all if they feel like it. and because the techs in question are optional, the player can safelly progress to the next era without them, and thier benifits if he wishes.
     
  18. Pangur Bán

    Pangur Bán Deconstructed

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2002
    Messages:
    9,020
    Location:
    Transtavia
    Yes it does. Turn length is determined by how much the AI has to do, which is related to map size and civ numbers. In my experience, civ numbers are more important. I've noticed that turn-length speeds up when I conquer a civ.


    Also, Rome's wars with the Cisalpine calls frequently brought Transalpine Gauls over to help. There was no isolation.
     
  19. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2001
    Messages:
    27,779
    Location:
    Not on your side
    My experience corroborates calgacus' - the number of civs is a more important factor than the map size. I've seen turn times fall from over 30 minutes to less than 5 in situations were the numbers of civs and units has fallen but map size and number of cities remained constant.
     
  20. pinktilapia

    pinktilapia Homeless

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    1,219
    Location:
    Belgium
    Well now :) My original thought was to keep the player in a historical frame, not so much a what if but more an attempt to get a replay of history, which at best finish by 476AC if the player is good enough, well before otherwise. Now, if we can work out a set of 'religion' for the mod, we can set up several scenarios: one (close to my heart) trying to stick to historical main events, one giving the player a choice at the main crossroads. Tell us more about your religion system based on wonders and tech tree.

    Arr Xen... did I ever suggest that? :confused: I am very much an atheist myself, so none of these religions mean much to me. I was just talking history. Catholicism did replace polytheism, mostly due to a couple of Emperors, for whatever the reasons they had. When I want the 'polytheist' mood improvements to become useless, it is to stimulate some trouble in the cities (that's about the only way I can see to do so, beside a change of government) and forcing the player to look into a new religion.

    I am open to suggestion concerning the list of events we will consider, together with their associated buildings/wonder/units/etc. :rolleyes: I think the Crucifixion should appear nonetheless in the game, its impact was quite...hum... significant. We can yet discuss its effects!
     

Share This Page