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Rise of Mankind 2.9 discussion

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rise of Mankind' started by zappara, Oct 24, 2009.

  1. MrAdam

    MrAdam Warlord

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    So monarchy is better than democracy? Things a thousand years ago were better then they are now? Feudal societies had more profitable/productive farms then we do now?

    Ignoring your rant...
     
  2. little_cyclone

    little_cyclone Loyal Civ4 & C2C mod player

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    Its all dependent on playing style and player perception. You see using Fedualism as an advantage. Others may not. For example, I prefer using Patrician for the +1 Gold per Specialist, and ignoring the other effects, whilst my brother avoids it like the plague for the negative effects that interfere with his preferred play style. If you think a Civic is overpowered thats one thing, but balance is something far trickier to achieve, and in the end its definition can be subjective from person to person, making the whole situation an exercise in futility.
     
  3. os79

    os79 Deity

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    Well, it depends on what your thesis of history is.

    It seems that your thesis is that history is the progress from "OK" to "Great" of humanity.

    Others would argue that the thesis of history is simply to understand what happened and why.

    Others say that history just is. It is there for us to analyze and discuss our understandings and to develop our argument skills for our perspectives by reviewing others' thesis and giving our own thesis.

    So long story short, MrAdam, for you our modern style of governments might be better and deserve their representations thereof in the game. While other players might argue that what civics represent just might show how humankind flourished under diverse circumstances.

    Remember this is a game and it is extremely hard to apply complex world historical reality (whichever you choose to conceive of) to this game. However, Zappara indeed did an outstanding job at that!
     
  4. es4

    es4 Chieftain

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    Is there any possibility of re-working some of the Unique Units? A few of these are almost useless now (I'm thinking Holkan in particular, as spearmen are already resourcesless).
     
  5. Crusis

    Crusis Warlord

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    Well said, os79
     
  6. szemek77

    szemek77 Prince

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    Guys,
    I would recommend to distinguish two subjects - balance of the civics and realism of the game.

    1. I personally think, that it is not fair to disqualify other civics just because someone is just using two of six or seven. I think that it depends on your strategy and style of playing. For instance, I'm a builder so I tend to use the civics which gives you science, higher GP birth rate, and strong economy. I'm using offensive war only against unfriendly civs (kind of a preventive war doctrine ;). But I can easily imagine people who want to play warmonger style and they will definetely use other civics.

    2. As for realism - stop joking. This is only a GAME. Just keep in mind that the first written signs of human activity come from 3000 BC. So we got approx. 5 thousand years of mankind history and only 50 years of democracy with all the features we know. And not to mention that only 1/5 of the worlds population is enjoying its profits.
     
  7. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    I agree. When I first started playing RoM, I locked myself into a set civics style, and wouldn't deviate from it. But, as I learned the nuances, and tried other strategies, my civic choices changed drastically.

    The first signs of human activity came way before 3000BC. Democracy is way older than 50 years. It was first used in Ancient Greece, but that was Direct Democracy, not the Representative Democracy we are all familiar with today. I think it's worth the effort to make the game as realistic as possible; sure there may be shortcomings, but realism is still important. And I think you could argue that all of the world has been in some way, albiet indirectly, affected by Democracies today
     
  8. szemek77

    szemek77 Prince

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    Good expression - "I locked myself into a set civics style" - which appeals also to my experience with RoM :)

    As for the second point - I said first WRITTEN signs, and I said democracy with all the features We KNOW. It is important difference, I guess :) Besides - I did not mean to diminish the Democracy and its power. I think Western civilization proved its profits especially if it comes to economic development and quality of life.

    I just said that the reality of Mankind's history (and even presence) shows that it is one of the less popular and less used systems of ruling the country. That is one point.

    Another is that the Democracy truly costs a lot, causes war unhappines, makes the maintanance of military power more expensive and so on. But it gives a lot of bonuses which are HARD TO IMPLEMENT in a game such as CIV. So - my conclusion is as this: the advantage of democracy towards feudalism is obvious in REAL WORLD, but it is much harder to picture it in the game. That is why it seems that using some of obsolete civics in the game may seem to be more profitable as it should be.
     
  9. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    Do you play with Revolutions on? That fixes that problem. Try appeasing a giant country with the negative effects from Feudalism. It doesn't work, your going to destroy your country.
     
  10. MrAdam

    MrAdam Warlord

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    Thats what I meant by balance :/

    Well said. I don't see how anyone could not value realism/logic in a game that tries to emulate the evolution and interactions of civilizations :/.

    How well does the AI handle that though?
     
  11. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    Fairly well, these days. It did good in Rev 2.5, but I think it's working even better in Rev 2.6. Now that RoM 2.8 is using Rev 2.6, I think you should try it out.

    Playing without Revolutions feels like cutting out half the game to me. RoM was optimized for Revolutions, everyone who turns it off is missing out.
     
  12. MrAdam

    MrAdam Warlord

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    I turned it off because earlier the AI couldn't handle it at all. They were in a constant state of revolution.

    I'll try my next game with it on, thanks
     
  13. Tekener

    Tekener Chieftain

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    A bit back to topic: I fully agree, 2.9 should be finetuning and polishing RoM. The mod is already huge and has tons of content, let's make it perfect ;) So I will continue looking for button graphics and sounds and let the modding part to the guys who can do this.
     
  14. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Since I started playing RoM long before REV was made an option for it, my play style is based upon Core RoM. I've basically only played with Rev on way back in version 2.3 or 2.4. I didn't care for it's mechanics and it didn't suit my builder Play style. If I was an aggressor war type then I probably would've embraced it with open arms. But I don't use it and feel that if the Civics have to be based off REV's influence then I'll go back to Early RoM versions.

    The Civics do not need to be based upon REV but upon Core RoM. I know that's my opinion but it's what I base my evaluations upon, just like everyone else bases theirs on.

    The Civics are more complicated now than ever. Maybe too much so, maybe not. The part that I feel gets over looked way too much is not how the player uses them but how the AI uses them. If any change to the Civics is done it needs to be done from this perspective. The AI weights are still too strong towards sacrificing pop and tech for might. If the AI developed an Economic base to rival the player the would be a horde of ppl crying out that the AI is Too Strong. But in the end that is what we really want. A true struggle to overcome. Too many ppl play the higher levels as it is now and they are all very vocal that the game is too easy. And it's because the Civics have been fine tuned for the player and Not for the AI. When this is finally addressed then you'll have the weaker players like me crying that we can't win on the easy(settler/chieftain/noble) levels. So "Balance" is truly subjective and is very different in every "eye of the beholder".

    Someone just posted a thread about the Internet and Encyclopedia Wonders being overpowered. I think they've become watered down. And it's this very same angles of perspective that we look at the Civics with.

    So I guess it comes down to this question: Can we adapt to what we have and be happy with it?

    JosEPh :)
     
  15. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I gave up playing with Revolutions on when my people would complain about a civic choice I had made when I had no option but that first civic since I had not yet researched a tech which would allow the choosing of another.
     
  16. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    I think :whip: is better simulation
     
  17. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    Your expanding too fast then. You are supposed to get off the early civics pronto.
     
  18. civ_king

    civ_king Deus Caritas Est

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    I find Revolutions enhances builder experience
     
  19. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    But Slavery kills my tech advance:)
     
  20. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    HuH? If you don't keep pace with the AI in expansion you'll get boxed in and then overrun!

    :O

    JosEPh
     

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