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Rise of Rome & Parthia, Successor Wars

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Creation & Customization' started by Ad Hominem, Jan 26, 2004.

  1. Ad Hominem

    Ad Hominem Chieftain

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    The Rise of Rome 2nd edition

    My favorite Conquest scenario is Rise of Rome. I love the ancient era (my favorite MOD is of course “The Ancient Mediterranean”) and that’s why. But… but… the scenario is everything but historically correct. I am an avid history buff and I really wish for some more accuracy, and also for enhanced gameplay, at least compared to the rather abstract nature of the “off the box” version of this scenario.

    So I started modding and went on to create something better. Bigger. Bader. And historicaly accurate. All that by ammending the existing scenario. But that doesn't seem enough.

    Probably I should start from scratch, on a dedicated map, to create a decent scenario. Maybe I will, if this call brings in some interest and a couple of volunteers to work together with me on the scenario.

    The general buildup of the scenario:

    It is 264 BC. Rome is beginning to establish it’s role as the dominant power of the Italian peninsula, but still has some competition on their home ground. The Carthaginians are the dominant trading and naval power in the Western Med. The two major powers have finally come to arms.

    On the East, a the Parthians have made their move and begin to carve an empire out of the ashes of the Persian empire, in the middle of the successor kingdoms, by getting a large chunk out of the huge Seleucid Empire, one of the major successor Kingdoms.

    The latter (in this scenario shall be represented the three most powerful ones: Macedonia-Antigonid Empire, Seleucid Empire, Ptolemaic Egypt) are bound in an endless struggle that is eating away their powers. In southern Greece the old powers try to get the upper hand again, remembering their former glory, after Pyrrhos, King of Epirus, has failed to stop Rome’s reign to power.

    The faction lineup (list currently under construction):

    Major factions:

    Rome (controls the greatest part of the Italian peninsula + some cities in the shores of Iberia). Historical Leader: ? Suggested Leader (for gameplay purposes): J. Ceasar. Attributes: Militaristic, Industrius.

    Carthage (controls the western northern Africa, Sardinia, Corsica, and half Sicily): Historical Leader: Hannibal Barka. Suggested Leader: Same. Attributes: Commercial, Seafaring.

    Macedonia (controls Northern Greece, Thrace, Epirus – the latter for gameplay purposes). Historical Leader: Antigonos II Gonatas. Suggested Leader: Same (adoption of Alex). Attributes: Militaristic, Industrius.

    Hellas (southern Greek city-states incl. Athens, Sparta, the leagues and possibly – for gameplay purposes – Syracusae). Historical Leader: Chremonides (Athenian leader). Suggested leader: Same (leaderhead ?). Attributes: Scientific, Seafaring.

    Ptolemaic Egypt (Egypt, Cyprus, Sinai): Historical Leader: Ptolemy II Philadelphos. Suggested Leader: ??? use Cleo???. Attributes: Scientific, Religius

    Seleucid Empire (Half Asia Minor, Syria, most of the middle east, the whole of Persia minus a small part to the north that is Parthia). Historical Leader: Antiochos I Soter. Suggested Leader: The Same or better Antiochos (thanks TLC) III Megas (the Great). Leaderhead??? Attributes: Militaristic, Agricultural

    Parthia (starts off in a satrapy of the Seleucid Empire, in the area between Black Sea and Caspian Sea but with a big and fully developed – with cataphracts and all – army. The Parnii – later renamed Parthians – started their empire in 250 BC but for gameplay’s sake we can present them 14 years earlier). Historical leader: Arsaces I. Suggested Leader: Mithridates III the Great. Leaderhead???. Attributes: Militaristic, Commercial (?) or Religius (?)

    Minor factions:

    Italians (Samnites?)
    Iberians
    Germanic Tribes
    Celts
    Scythes

    Under consideration:
    - Pergamon Kingdom
    - Pontus
    - Nabataea

    Units to added (list currently under construction):

    Ships
    Cataphract Trireme
    Wargalley
    Quinquireme
    Siege Quinquireme
    More?

    Foot units
    Hypaspists
    Peltasts
    Hoplite variations (for the various Greek factions)
    Phalanx (pezeteroi for the Macedonians)
    Argyraspides (probably represented by one of the many existing Kryten’s Hoplites or the alternative - AOE - phalanx unit)
    Cretan Archer (I plan on using the Toxotes/Greek Archer unit)
    Assyrian Archer
    Ifikratian Hoplite (?)
    Javelineer
    Imperial Legionary
    Gastraphetes (?) – might use some sort of Crossbowman (that’s what it was, anyway)
    More?


    Cavalry
    Heteroi (Companions)
    Seleucid Cataphracts (?)
    Parthian Cataphracts
    Parthian Horse Archers (?)
    Thessalian Cavalry (?)
    Numidian Cavalry (?)
    More?

    Siege
    Hellepolis (?)
    Ballistae
    More?

    What we need to make this scenario something more than a home-made for the self-pleasure of the creator, toy-scenario, are:

    - A map that does not include large chunks of northern Europe (not needed in this scenario) but stretches from Iberia to Persia. If nobody can make such a map, we’ll have to stick with the one we have in the scenario RoR or… is there a larger European map? We need room for more cities.
    - Some historical data concerning the non-Greek factions (those I master pretty well) and especially the minor factions. Also, city and leader lists for any faction shall be highly appreciated.
    - More data on possible units/buildings/wonders. Also, a tech-tree that could span in three eras and someone to create and implement it.
    - Units. Unit graphics. Anything related to graphics shall be extremely highly appreciated (I am good with words but lousy with images). Prolly we might create this scenario without creating a single unit, but if someone is willing to add more spice that would be great.
    - Anything else you can think of.

    Anyone interested? Mind you, this might require some serious work...
     
  2. Lachlan

    Lachlan Great Builder of Civs !

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    Warning !!! Too big map = unloadable scn ...

    I want play your future scn :cry:

    Keep the same map than Rise of Rome

    Not too cities for reasons of loading ...

    If not i can't wait :goodjob:
     
  3. Louis XXIV

    Louis XXIV Le Roi Soleil

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    I was planning to edit Rise of Rome to get a similar result to what you have. If you are interested, here's my ideas:

    Rome, Carthage, Iberia, Gaul, Goths, Parthia, Macedon, Seleucid, and Egypt.

    Rome:
    Legion I: 4.3.1 50
    Legion II: 5.4.1 70
    Legion III: 6.5.1 90
    Velites: 2.1.1 20
    Garrison: 1.3.1 20
    Horseman: 2.1.2 30
    Heavy Cav: 5.2.2 60 (or whatever it actually is, my memory is a bit fuzzy)
    Galley: 3.2.4 (3) 40
    Assault Galley: 3.2.3 50 enslaved to assault Galley

    Carthage:
    Libyan Mercenary: 2.3.1 20
    Punic Horseman: 2.1.2 30 (No upkeep).
    Numidian Cavalry: 3.1.3 30 (Note: Anyone with Numidian Horse resource can build)
    Elephant: 4.2.2 50 +1 HP (Note: Both Macedon and Seleucid start with some Elephants, but can't build any more)
    Heavy Cav (see above).
    Balearic Slinger: 2.2.1 2.0.1
    Carthaginian Galley 4.2.4(+1 move for Seafaring) (3) 40

    Gaul:
    Spearman: 1.2.1 20
    Archer: 2.1.1 2.0.1 20
    Swordsman: 3.2.1 30
    Galic Swordsman: 4.2.2 50
    Horseman: 2.1.2 30
    Barbarian Cavalry: 5.2.3 60

    Macedon:
    Spearman: 1.2.1 20
    Hoplite: 3.3.1 40
    Peltast: 2.1.1 20
    Companion: 3.1.2 30
    Heavy Cav (see above)
    Swordsman 3.2.1
    Starts with a few Elephants (from India)

    Seleucid
    Peltast 2.1.1 20
    Spearman 1.2.1 20
    Hoplite 3.3.1 40
    Horseman 2.1.2 30
    Swordsman
    Cataphract (Eastern Cataphract): 6.2.2 60
    Starts with a few Elephants (From India)

    Parthia
    Horse Archer: 2.1.3 2.0.1 30 (starts with a bunch to initially take out a lot of Seleucid cities)
    Archer: 2.1.1 2.0.1 20
    Cataphract: 6.2.3
    Spearman: 1.2.1 20
    Swordsman: 3.2.1 30
    Immortal (not sure about this, because it isn't historically accurate) 4.2.1 40

    Not sure about the rest being playable

    Egypt:
    Basically like the other Greek kingdoms, except they get Archers for Defensive bombard
    Spearman 1.2.1 20
    Hoplite 3.3.1 40
    Horseman 2.1.3 30
    Archer 2.1.1 2.0.1 20
    Heavy Cav (only if playable)

    Goths:
    Spearman: 1.2.1 20
    Swordsman: 3.2.1 30
    Teutonic Warrior (available at Military Training, or something like that) 6.2.1 70
    Horseman 2.1.2
    Barbarian Cavalry: 5.2.3 60

    Iberia:
    Spearman: 1.2.1 20
    Balearic Slinger: 2.2.1 2.0.1 20
    Horseman 2.1.2
    Barbarian Cav 5.3.3 60
    Swordsman/Iberian Swordsman 3.2.1 30 / 4.2.1 40

    Techs: Add ship building of Map Making to build Galleys
    Add Corvus as a Roman tech for Assault Galleys. Add Colloseum wonder, add Gladiator school as wonder that produces Gladiator units.
     
  4. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

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    The Seleucid leader should be Antiochus III, not?

    Interesting project. I'll be following it, and can perhaps help some. I'm not a graphics person, tho.
     
  5. 10Seven

    10Seven Intolerant of Intolerance

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    :) I would like to see this.

    I like the idea of an enlarged area - depends how big though, since slow down is a BIG problem :(
     
  6. Xen

    Xen Magister

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    roman cav suggestions ;)

    A- Equites, a basic cavalry unit, the first in the roman line

    B- mercenary cavalry- the equites do NOT upgradce into this- as it is supposed to represetn the ro0ma defficency in cavalry for its pre-imperial period

    C- Contarius- a strong cavalry man, firsd used in Agustian times, this would be the basic unit used to build into the mighty late Roman, and eventually Byzantine cataphracts- basically, he is a cataphract in that he is a heavilly armourd trooper weilding a large two handed pike, but the horse has no armour on it
     
  7. Xen

    Xen Magister

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    *note the equite upgrade sintol the contarius, while the merc. cav has no upgrade
     
  8. Xen

    Xen Magister

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    also, depending on how large the map is, Ethiopea (Axum), and Persia (under the parthians it was a subkingdom, not afully incorperated territory, that persia was) are a must
     
  9. Kristoff

    Kristoff Chieftain

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    Me too :) So I'm working on exactly the same conquest. Mine will use Rise of Rome map and cover period from 282 BC (beginning of the war with Magna Graetia, Greek colonies in South Italy) to 116 AD (peak of the Roman might under Trajan). To make things a bit harder, there will be 16 civs:

    Rome
    Carthage
    Hellas (Macedon and the rest of proper Greece)
    Magna Graetia (as mentioned before)
    Aegypt
    Galia
    Germania
    Britannia
    Sarmatia
    Thracia
    Dacia
    Minor Asia (standing for all these Pontus, Capadocia ect.)
    Armenia
    Parthia (at the beginning it should be Seleucides, but you've got to make compromises)
    Illyrians
    Iberians

    As you can see, some civs will in fact represent various tribes occupying a certain territory (i.e. Illyrians or Iberians).

    So far, I've made everything except from tech tree (the worst one) and buildings. O, I've also got to redo the map (cities, borders, nations). I'm also waiting for Kryten to release his Roman units (they were announced somewhere in Peloponnesian War thread, I believe), which I'd love to use - if permitted of course.

    As to units or resources, I'm not tied to ideal balance between civs. There will be about 30 resources (including 16 luxuries), but tar or honey will be spotted only in Germania's forests, amber on Baltic seashore, marble in Greece and North Africa, hemp in Sarmatia, papyrus in Mid East ect. So it will be much more historically correct and it won't be so easy to gain 10+ luxuries for your civ, because you'll need to trade with many nations.
    The same will go for units. I'm not going to desaign a standard developement line and just make flavour units in each category. I'd rather have all units UU in some sense. For example, Parthians, Armenians or Sarmatians will later have cataphract, but it doesn't mean Romans will recieve a comparable counterpart with the same tech. It should represent general Roman inferior in horseback warfare. OTOH, Roman legions (early and late republican, and imperial) will be better than other civs' footmen. Dacian i.e. can start even with falxmen and do not recieve any better infantry till end of the game. However, I'll probably make some barbarian mercenaries avaliable to civilized nations (such as Rome, Hellas, Carthage ect.).

    Goverments will be:
    Republic
    City States
    Kingdom
    Tribal Chiefdom
    Imperialism

    Of course, everyone will start with proper gov, not that Rome will have to go from Tribal Chiefdom to Republic or something.

    Well, that's all for now.
     
  10. Bóreas

    Bóreas The Wind of the North

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    I think galia is a obrigatory one. I can help with resources and tech tree:
    resources you'll need: Olive Oil, Lemon and orange, diferent fishes, wool, horses( a few on the north spain and south france)
    and wine(with white graphics)
    Techs: Colosseum, History Telling, Road run
     
  11. Noob@civ

    Noob@civ Chieftain

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    Edited to avoid confusion
     
  12. Ad Hominem

    Ad Hominem Chieftain

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    all

    Thanks for the feedback and warm welcome of this effort.


    Louis
    I like your unit lineup, but I plan on adding more units for most factions – and that’s because I wish for an expanded techtree as well. But I can use your unit lineup as a basis and build upon it. If you wish, we could work together on this


    TLC

    I’d agree on Antiochos III “The Great”, that’s the suggested leader I have in my list as well. I’d appreciate any help concerning historical data, since you seem to be quite a history person yourself.


    Xen

    Well, as for Persia, there was no independent (or semi-independent) Persian kingdom at the time of the scenario start (either 264 or 250 BC). The Parthians took Iran in the very late 3rd century BC – early 2nd century BC. And the Parthian empire was really an amalgam of semi-independent kingdoms anyway, modeled on the earlier Persian satrapy system. Axum… well, in the current map can’t be included, but if someone is brave enough to make a new map… who knows ;)

    Contarius (their later incarnation are the Byzantine Kondarati, no?) are a bit late for the timeframe of this scenario, ain’t they?

    Kristoff

    I like your approach, but mine seems a bit different. I will try to focus on the Latin-Greek world, the Great powers of the times, and have the others (bar Carthago-Parthia, they are Great powers too) for filling purposes.

    I especially like the approach on resources and unit lineups – that’s precisely what I’d like to do too: Unique unit lineups. We could cooperate if we could find a common ground (somewhere in the middle? :) ) and work on a single scenario. But it’s up to you. Let me know.

    Boreas

    Was your offer for Kristoff’s scenario, mine or both? If it was about this scenario too, you could provide a huge help, dealing with the resources. Let me know and I’ll tell you my thoughts.

    ALL

    I think my initial post was somewhat cluttered with lots of stuff so probably I wasn’t clear as to what I need to proceed with the scenario. So, here are some jobs some of you might find interesting:

    - Unit lineup for most factions
    - Resources (concept and graphics)
    - Tech Tree (concept, Graphics, Creation)
    - Building lineup (concept, creation)
    - Leaderheads suggestions

    So… any daring volunteers?
     
  13. Xen

    Xen Magister

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    well, first of, from when are you starting, and stopping the scenario (what dates) helping to dofine things woul aid just about everything as for when the game ends...

    anyway, as far as the contarius goes, its descendent would have been the Cataphracts- "cont" anything just describes a horseman as a type of mounted lancer
    and no, I doubt it would be to late if you cbsidering using J. Caesar as the Roma great leader,as the Contarius rose into use with the Augustian reforms of the military
     
  14. Xen

    Xen Magister

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    * note that Ceasr importance in that reasoning is that I assume, since Caesar will be used as a leader, the game goes to at least the late republic period, makeing it not much of a stretch to imcorperate som troops from the early Imperial period into usage in the end part of the game
     
  15. Ad Hominem

    Ad Hominem Chieftain

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    Hmm... ok Xen, I was thinking more in the lines of a 264 BC - 116 BC scenario, but I think we could stretch it to the end of the century or so, in order to justify the inclusion of JC (maybe Cleo too for Ptolemaic Egypt) as a Roman leader We'd need quite a tech tree for such a prolonged period, though, with vast changes and all...

    I know about Kondos (it's almost the same word in modern Greek, "kondari", meaning the same thing) but I was wondering about a more linear linkage between the early Byzantine Kondarati and the Roman Contarius... BTW as I've seen in other threads Cataphract seem to be your personal Holy Grail :D

    Too bad only Parthian, Seleucid (and perhaps Armenian, if we include those) should have Cataphracts in this scenario...
     
  16. Xen

    Xen Magister

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    wha dose condos in greek mean?

    Contarius is latin, and is based off of the word 'Contos', meaning "barge pole"- which was the name given to cavalry Pikes
     
  17. Ad Hominem

    Ad Hominem Chieftain

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    Kondos or Kontos in Medieval Greek means lance and/or pike (especially the particular byzantine lance, the one used also by the Cataphracts). Prolly it's an adoption by the Roman word, but I wonder about the true origins of the word, because Contos has obviously Greek root... maybe I'll check it out.

    Kondari in modern Greek means the same thing and also a pole or a very long and thick stick.
     
  18. Kristoff

    Kristoff Chieftain

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    Well, I see we try to cover a slightly different period and territory. Though, I think we could for example develop a common resources pack and units (also buildings, some techs). Maybe I'll just send you my resources (pcx + txt) and you'll take what you want. By the and of this week I'll try also to send you my units ideas and we can think of making a common "armoury". How about that?
     
  19. Ad Hominem

    Ad Hominem Chieftain

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    one single "scenario pack" but with two different BIQs, perhaps? That would be a decent compromise.

    Alright, when I go home (late, late, late tonight, as my spouse shall take me to furniture-hunting :eek: this afternoon after work) I'll start finishing some preliminary unit lineups/stats/reqs and send them to you when they are ready. Then you can throw your ideas at me and we can go on "developing that common armoury" :goodjob:
     
  20. The Last Conformist

    The Last Conformist Irresistibly Attractive

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    Re: Antiochus III, it act'ly says Antigonos III Megas in your first post. Mere thinko, I assume.

    Parthia is going to need a hefty advantage or two, if they're going to eat the eastern bits of the Seleucid kingdom in a vaguely realistic manner.

    You might want to add a "Barbarian Swordsman" or the like for the Celts, Germanics and the like.
     

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