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Rise of Rome Scenario

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Strategy & Tips' started by RedKi-rr, Jun 23, 2011.

  1. RedKi-rr

    RedKi-rr Chieftain

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    Is it winnable with Rome at Sid level? With accelerated prodution it looks like insanse...%)
    Is Roman the easiest or the hardest civ to play?..
     
  2. BMartini28

    BMartini28 Chieftain

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    I cant even win as rome on monarch. Its so hard to get the required percentages because persia always has a huge lead and wipes out macedon.

    Personally I think the easiest is
    1. Persia (can destroy Persepolis first turn capital shifts to antioch=better production)
    2. Macedon (if you can ally with the scythians till persia is gone)
    3. Carthage (rome took it easy on me and I took over Egypt and most of SE Persia...they still won tho)
    4. Rome (Settle like crazy and take over greece (byzantium) before persia does)- possible rome persia war later?
    5. Scythia (got close to winning took out other barbarian tribes and macedon)
    6. Egypt
    7. Celts
    8. Goths
     
  3. iggymnrr

    iggymnrr Chieftain

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    There were some succession games on this a while back. IIRC both Carthage and Rome were played on Sid. Both were winning but Persian size prevented wins within the time limit. Both games were narrow losses.
     
  4. TheOverseer714

    TheOverseer714 Overseer

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    Spamming the desert is a way to win as Carthage. Block the Suez with an army to bring Persia to heel and another to pillage Rome's iron.
     
  5. Stoertebeker

    Stoertebeker Chieftain

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    There are some things you have to keep in mind to win as Rome:

    1. Micromanage the start: Good moves in the first turns will pay off, like in every Civ game. That includes to use the legions to make roads and to build a workforce of around 20 Workers in the first turns. (Minor hint: Rome and Neapolis can, given certain terrain improvements and a harbor in Neapolis, be 1-Turn-Worker-Factories on size 6.)
    2. Be a Diplomat: Have everyone (except, maybe, Macedonia) in an alliance against Carthage and get big GPT-Deals by tech-brokering. Always have RoP with everyone. Give away 1 GPT to everyone. You don't want to fight anyone until you decide to do so. Trade maps every turn: If you have just one scout, you can make around 40 GPT by that.
    3. Be a scientist: Research at 100% during the first 40 turns helps a lot to get big money from the AI. Philosophy helps greatly.
    4. Take all luxuries you can so you don't have to waste coins on the luxury slider. (Use your first 4 Settlers for that: 1 for Spices in France, 1 for Silk in Hungary, 1 for Furs in Germany (if you place a city on the hill near Waldegesheim, you don't even have to build a road, as the goth's will do that for you), 1 for Gems, Incense or Dyes in the orient. (I usually ship 2 more settlers east as soon as possible to get everything.)
    5. Time your Golden Age well: It should be late enough to have most cities at max population, but soon enough to get Philosophy and to be able to hit Carthage before it builds up a big defense. I'd say, around 300 and 270 BC is the time for that. Use the GA to build up a massive force of Horsemen (to upgrade them later: It's worth to think about disconnecting iron, if you already have Military Training: You have lots of cash and no shields to waste), Catapults and Galleys.
    6. After the Golden Age, it's time to settle. There are a lot of Locations with fresh water and bonus food in Germany, Hungary and Spain: cashrush Settlers, as soon you have switched to Imperialism (what you really should do as soon as possible) to settle the best places.

    In my last game (on Deity), by 40 BC I backstabbed Macedonia, because I was already near the population limit and just needed more land: The temple of Artemis helped a lot. As they had all troops fighting in minor asia, I also conquered all of their european holdings in a few turns.

    At the same time, I used a cash-rushed force of Heavy Cav to conquer 3 egyptian Cities. That took me to 20/50 by 5 ad. If Egypt already is beaten by Persia (you can prevent that with a single Unit east of Pelusium), you could also attack the Celts, and/or Goths to push yourself over the limit.
    But that's just a matter of taste. Most important is the build-up phase so that you can spit out huge amounts of units in the Golden Age.

    The Persians surely are strong, but that's not your problem: For the domination count it doesn't matter if they own the cities in minor asia or the greeks do. If you fear them, just place a single unit (or, if you are at war with them: an army) east of Byzantium. That will hold them back. But you can outexpand them easily, if you want.

    If somebodie's interested, we could make a shared game.

    @iggymnrr: The games were on deity. Here is a link, for everybody interested (starts with rbc3a).
     
  6. RedKi-rr

    RedKi-rr Chieftain

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    Thanks a lot for your answers and tips!

    A while ago I wanted to win this one at Sid...But now I see that reading and practice are not enough for the win. It's much easier to win usual-standard PTW Deity...So, this will be one of few game situations and goals where I give up) May be better to play at Deity, at least I know that it's winnable there)

    Some questions -
    is it worth to build wonders at he beginning?
    are legions so good? or is it better to build heavy cavalry? or mix legions/catapults/cavalry?

    Also I begin to think that this scenario is inbalanced - it seems that it's much easier to play as Persians.

    If somebody had won it without main exploits (like connecting and disconnecting resourses when trading with AI) at Sid as Rome, please post a couple of words about the win.
     
  7. Stoertebeker

    Stoertebeker Chieftain

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    It depends. In my last game, I could get the GL and Bacchanalia. I began to build them in the Golden Age. Might be difficult to get them on Sid - and they also aren't necessary: The GL just saves you some coins in the mid-game, Bacchanalia helps to reduce flip-risks. The best wonder for this game is the ToA, but it's impossible to get it. (Normally, the Macedons suceed to get it in Athens: Way before you could get it.)

    Imho, Legions are one of the weakest UU for a human player in this scenario. It's nice to have the initial Legions, as they are useful to build roads, to scare the other civs and to conquer the first cities. But they are way too expensive - you pay a lot for defensive values that you don't need (if you have armies). I built maybe 5 or 6 of them, later in the game, when I wanted to secure border cities. Heavy Cav are by far the best units: Attack 5 is just 1 less than Legion III. Okay, they also miss one Hitpoint. On the positive side: They can retreat, they are fast and 30% cheaper.

    Yes. maybe. But Rome also has its strengths. One of them: You can time your golden age as you like. More difficult if you play Persia.
    Another: Your core is extremely food- and (!) shield-rich: Well managed, the Italien cities can produce 180 shields per turn in the Golden Age, more than 120 after that. No other civ has anything comparable.
    A third: You'll be the first to make contact with the barbarian tribes, so you will make the profits of selling them your techs.
    Fourth: The traits are maybe the best of all major powers in this scenario: Militaristic is great, even more so on Sid. You are also industrious - great, as your cities will grow faster with faster irrigrations and you can mine every worked tile in your core in no time. Commercial is always nice.
    Fifth: You start with two techs in advance of everybody else: That is worth around 3000 coins in GPT-Deals with the AI: That helps a lot to be ahead in techs and to get more GPT from Persia and Macedonia.
    Sixth: Your settlers are fast and cheap in population. Good to reach the really good places really fast.

    I did, maybe a year ago. I made the mistake not to settle heavy after the golden age. So I finished the game really late (won with maybe 5 turns left). Plus I didn't buy everyone into the alliance against Carthage - what is necessary, if you want to be sure that they don't sign anybody in against you. And my first moves weren't as smart, as they are now.;)

    I wouldn't do that. Especially as Carthage, the population limit is harder to meet than the territory limit. Spain is much better to colonize than the desert, where cities won't grow above size 2.
     
  8. RedKi-rr

    RedKi-rr Chieftain

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    @Stoertebeker,

    When I started this scenario several times I tried to build all wonders I could%) So, I triggered GA, put all workers and settlers in Rome (and other cities) up to size 12 and built wonders. And I grabbed about halve of them, IIRC...May be even ToA. But now I see that this is wrong way)
    Need grab more land and lux resourses. Also I need better diplomacy. In that times I had miniamal knowlege on diplomacy. Now I have civ4 dimplomacy experience at least))

    It seems that you have great experience at this scenario. Thanks a lot for many nice and useful notes!
    Your Sid won inspires me...)
    My ovations and gongratulations!

    BtW, which goverments did you use in that win?
    And, when did you get Medicine?
    Is Imresialism much better than Oligarhy (or than first govermant, which allows rushbuying)? Is it worth several turns of anarchy?


    If you would start SG at Sid it would be very interesting. There so few current Sid games at this forum. At this moment only Tupac's game, IIRC.
     
  9. Stoertebeker

    Stoertebeker Chieftain

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    I used Imperialism. It's just a matter of few turns, compared to Republic, so the faster workers and the reduced corruption should be worth it. Monarchy comes in too early (you will normally be in the GA when you get it): To have 3 MP instead of 2 may be useful but I would prefer the commercial bonus of Imperialism. In every case it's crucial to get a cash-rush government.

    Medicine: I don't know. It's not crucial to get it, in my opinion. Most italian cities will already be at 20 or 30 SPT with 12 Pop, and more would not get you to the next "level" of production (so 30 shields instead of 20).

    Okay, so we make a little Sid SG.
     
  10. Stoertebeker

    Stoertebeker Chieftain

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    There are some questions to answer before we can start:

    Are you okay with the least aggressive AI setting?

    How do we handle the first turn diplomacy bug? We could get everyything out of the AI for an alliance against Carthage. Even cities. Imo it would be wrong to exploit that to that extent.
    But there are several approaches, how we could exploit the bug just a little bit:
    Approach 1: We could take at least the Persian worker and their dyes for the alliance. That's what I did in my deity game - I thought it would be okay as I would take from the rich an give to the poor. ;) But it's still gamey, of course.
    Approach 2: We could sign everybody in against Carthage on the first turn for free, even if we had to pay something for that on the second.
    Approach 3: We could do an "as if"- Diplomacy, thus giving the AI on the first turn what it normally would demand on the second for the alliance - this would make AI happier as normal and there would be no risk, that Carthage signs anybody against us.
    The strict approach would be not to sign alliances at all on the first turn. We would be worse off than we'd be without the bug.

    I prefer approach 2 or 3 (or maybe 1). But if you vote for the strict one, we'd take that.
     
  11. RedKi-rr

    RedKi-rr Chieftain

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    But what should I write you?) I don't feel myself to be strong enough player for SG Sid games (and even Deity). I just will crunk the ship playing at this level with a team, so it will turn out for team as wasted time. Well, I have some military victories at Deity (but no one of them with standard-normal settings, and also no one of them was very trivial). I have some basic skills and I read a lot last time. On other hand I play single games rather fast and without much micro, so with logging and micro I can perform better, probably)
    I feel that lurkering Sid/Deity games is very educational - that's why I asked for SG...

    I think approach 2 is nice (all of them is okay for me). Mostly I don't like exploits like "money from air", that makes disbalance. I prefer (in all civ games) fair play rules, but not strictly fair play. For example I completely agree with building workers at worker-factories and adding them to other cities.
     
  12. Stoertebeker

    Stoertebeker Chieftain

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    Oh, so I misunderstood you. I thought we would play together, 20 turns each ... . I wouldn't feel like wasting time, if we would not win that game.
    But I'm quite sure we can win. Okay, Micromanagement would be important, at least for the italian cities and for Diplomacy - in the first 40 or 60 turns. After that, it's about military tactics, logistics and settling strategy - with city MM losing it's importance.

    And to be true: I'm not a really experienced CIV III player neither. My very few Deity wins were on very, very favorable maps. It's only the Rise of Rome conquest that I played quite often. I'd be glad if I could share my experience, to deepen it by discussing. And if someone would share the handling of those huge armies and worker forces we will command later in the game, that would be great. ;)

    So, if you are interested, or someone else is: I'd be glad to share a Sid Rise of Rome conquest. It would be not so much about winning but about enjoying a great scenario together. By the way: I believe that nothing is as educational as thinking and playing yourself and discussing the thoughts and moves with others.
     
  13. RedKi-rr

    RedKi-rr Chieftain

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    Actually, I would like to try it, if you find my level OK) I never had discussion in SG games, so it also would very interesting for me.
    I agree for e-mail or forum game (up to 5-6 players in team) - according to your preferences)
    I just offer one thing to change - to play 9-10 turns, and later 5-6. So, it would be more discussion and more comfortable turnsets in the end.

    So, if you don't mind forum game, probably we should start the thread and wait several days for a new team members?..
     
  14. Stoertebeker

    Stoertebeker Chieftain

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    Alright, cool. Nice, that you changed your mind. So let's hope somebody jumps in. Do you open the thread?

    By the way, I'd really love to play the first 20 or maybe 15 turns - as I already have kind of a masterplan. A somehow detailed one with lots of micromanagement to do ... :D (Yes, I'm crazy about starts. I have an excel sheet with building orders, with timed worker movements, and so on. For me, those planning is one of the most fun things about CIV III and especially this scenario). I'd love to see if it works. If it does, I would hand over a game with (I think) perfect managed cities that are able to spit out 180 SPT in the Golden Age. After that, 10 turns would be absolutely okay. It depends on how many players we are, of course.
     
  15. RedKi-rr

    RedKi-rr Chieftain

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    As you wish) If you want to open the thread, please do it. But if you don't then I will start. I think the right place should be "Succession Games - Civ3".

    After opening we can agree the rules. I think we shouldn't change the rules after the turns will begin.

    It's okay for me if you play first 20 (or even 21 first turns - to renew some deals with AIs). After that we can set 10 turns for one session (for example for the next 7-8 sets), and evenually 5-7 may be (but it depends on situation in the game). Oh, it will be nice to see some description of the actions in the first turnset and your excel sheet as well :goodjob:

    So, let's begin?)
     
  16. Stoertebeker

    Stoertebeker Chieftain

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    Fine.
    Edit: I'll open a thread tonight.
    I'll post the spreadsheet and explain it for discussion, as soon as I have translated it completely. :)
     
  17. CELTICEMPIRE

    CELTICEMPIRE Zulu Conqueror

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    The Romans are too strong, the Egyptians are too weak.
     
  18. Stoertebeker

    Stoertebeker Chieftain

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    Okay, thread is open. This one can be left for general reasoning.
     

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