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(Rising Tide)So no Virtues nor TechWeb Overhaul ?

Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by Gokudo01, Aug 15, 2015.

  1. Gokudo01

    Gokudo01 Emperor

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    Or just smoothing ? what about colonist, spacecraft or victory condition ?

    The new diplomatic system and water gameplay are both cool. But some parts of the game need minor overhauls.

    I haven't seen any so far. Do you have any new information ?
     
  2. aguliondew

    aguliondew Prince

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    Colonist cost was reduced and their is a diplomatic trait that enable you to instantly found a city but the cost of a colonist increases 250-150%. I have no info on spacecraft? or victory conditions.

    The technology web give mix affinities from none affinity techs. That should help decrease the time it take for a victory. They did mention something about balancing the varies affinity victory time to win but no info on that.
     
  3. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    o_O Why would anyone want to decrease the Victory Times even more? Luckily that's not really true anyway though, as the amount of Affinity per Tech has been reduced as well. ^^

    @Topic: No, there's not much information on that. I think they haven't touched virtues at all in the Version that they're playing on stream.
     
  4. Enkidu Warrior

    Enkidu Warrior Ultramagnetic

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    I really hope that virtues get a severe reworking, particularly the wonky way they affect health.
     
  5. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    They seem to have reduced the affinity points per tech but spread them out. There are now affinity points on stem techs as well and many have points for two affinities at the same time.
     
  6. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    This should make for a more smoother affinity progression instead of the current system where the player can go awhile with no increase in affinity and then "jump" a whole level or two.
     
  7. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    As well as make it easier to go for hybrid affinities without deviating from your tech line.
     
  8. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Emperor

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    After seeing the Diplomacy teaser I really wonder: Do we even need culture anymore? All existing virtues could have been worked into that new political capital system.
     
  9. Black Whole

    Black Whole Dancing Condor

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    Judging from the last gameplay video with Pete as INTEGR, there are only minor changes. The tech web seems very full, which is a good thing. At least the midgame techs have much more content which hopefully helps to have more paths during the game instead of the standard path which will be researched in every game... (okay it depends on the affinity you are pursuing, but that's it.)

    The virtue tree... Actually I would prefer that they removed it entirely. When you are talking about immersion, the virtues actually should represent which path your colony follows and the "character" of your colony. But as it is now, the diplomatic traits (Political, Domestic and Military) seem to fulfill that role better than the virtues do. Why? Because they are dynamic. Your colony changes and so should your "character". The virtues are static and allow no altering of your traits as a colony, which just doesn't make sense. It didn't make sense to me in CiV either: If you choose the Traditional tree, you're condemned to be a monarchy for the rest of the game? (At least immersion-wise...)
    Now the gameplay: BE has the concept that your civ acquires perks, which will stay for the rest of the game and give you bonuses: Virtues, Affinity progression, Quests... Now in BERT there will be even Diplomatic Traits, which you choose and which you can buy from other civs, which will give more bonuses. IMHO, this has to stop. All those bonuses are the reason why the game is so fast paced and why buildings almost have no use, it doesn't matter when you build what. And the virtue tree is the biggest problem here. There are certainly virtues which are unique (Free Covert Agent, Faster Affinity progress, Capturing Outposts...) But most of them are just another +production, +energy, +food, +science, +health. And the tier 1,2 and 3 from spreading out and going deep even have more of this.

    What would be the solution? Solution 1: Make the virtues unique enough with global modifiers so they don't overlap with buildings. Give the +health, +citygrowth, +science, etc. to buildings and leave the interesting actions to virtues.
    Solution 2: Remove the tree entirely and instead make an "affinity tree". It combines virtues and affinity progress. When you acquire enough culture, you can gain 1 affinity point. Instead of the bonuses in place for going up in affinity, give more choices. E.g.: You can go Supremacy 1 and choose one of the follwoing perks:
    -Field Research: Additional Module for Explorers
    -Xenocide Module: Explorer has more strength against aliens
    -blahblahblah: ...
    Affinity can still be acquired from quests and science, but you need more xp for the next upgrade..

    I know that this isn't an easy task, but I think it would help gameplay and immersion. :)
    That's just my two cents ;)

    EDIT: Ah, GAGA just sniped my thoughts :D
     
  10. Stringer1313

    Stringer1313 King

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    My guess/hope is that they are saving the virtues-sweep for last, i think there is still too much balancing and tinkering right now with the major stuff. But I also agree that maybe virtues should be scrapped entirely --- there are too many gameplay "choices" right now (like the stupid building "quests") that do little to immerse you into the game and make you feel like you are just playing with spreadsheets.

    The diplo agreements and traits are awesome b/c they DO immerse you into the game. They need to figure out how to do the same with virtues and buildings. I would also be happy if they simply eliminated all building "quests" and just picked one of the options. There are too many un-fun choices.
     
  11. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    Virtues offer an avenue of specializing that traits couldn't really fill, with different paths through bonuses.

    Virtues could use a pass though, and building quests are poorly balanced.

    I'd rather not see huge amounts of power focused into agreements I can't guarantee in a game, and three trait bonuses replacing virtues would get stale fast.

    I like Virtues as developing values of a sort, forming some of the cultural heritage unique to one's colony. Why should those change on a dime?
    ___________________________________________

    Though I would like more impact from Affinity, either in the Traits based system me and DefiantMars have been tinkering with in the ideas section or my Devotions system.

    If anything the game could use more meaningful options.
     
  12. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Emperor

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    You could just add two or three slots for "Unique Abilities", sorta like the current preset sponsor one is handled. They could be upgradeable and - if you think that's best - not switchable. Although I don't really see why a colony shouldn't be able to forfeit it's older heritage. Considering that you invested a lot of points on those, it would be quite painful.
     
  13. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    That would be far less than the current Virtue system allows.

    If players can swap bonuses, it takes a lot of weight out of choosing those bonuses, and it doesn't work as well with heavy investment like focusing on Culture generation.

    I wouldn't mind more traits, but investing in permanent Virtue bonuses should stay.
    __________________________________

    In my opinion Virtues could be made more interesting by buffing lackluster ones and generally getting reworking ones that feel like filler on the way to something satisfying.
     
  14. Halbbruder

    Halbbruder Prince

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    I see your point mainly with regard to Might and Knowledge virtue trees concerning health, but otherwise, the virtues are actually fine. This is because the new features have actually indirectly buffed certain virtues:

    - Might: since the aliens are stronger and more relevant now, that means the Might Tree is more relevant as it has a combat bonus against aliens and bonus science from killing them.
    - Prosperity: new sea bases make it more viable to go wide and prosperity is great at maintaining health. Also, the +3 expeditions per explorer is very useful now. Also better trade routes.
    - Knowledge: new artifacts and expeditions mean more science from expeditions. However, they still have issues with health bonuses, so I implement your point here but water it down a bit, Enkidu. ;)
    - Industry: no indirect buff I can think of, besides that it will be very useful for Al-Falah. This tree is already decent enough as is.

    I would like to see some improvement for knowledge and might concerning health but there's no need to really reform them.


    As for techweb, I'm interpreting this with victory conditions and maybe also certain weapons being available. It seems fine given that Firaxis is now promoting the incentive for hybrid affinities. So no more "you have to go down one affinity path to win" approach, although we're yet to see whether they reform victories, which is what I believe needs to be reformed, especially since the AI have no clue how to win Promised Land and Emancipation victories and they always go for transcendence (the ones that go harmony because it's so easy).
     
  15. NASAROG

    NASAROG Prince

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    That looks to be the writing on the wall. The virtue system can/should be changed for the expansion following RT.
     
  16. Enkidu Warrior

    Enkidu Warrior Ultramagnetic

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    I think the health situation is worse than just forcing you down one of two trees. Health needs smoothing out more generally. Even if you do take prosperity, you end up with crippling health problems for half the game, then basically unlimited health for the remaining half. This isn't a satisfying mechanic. Virtues shouldn't be a crutch for an excessively harsh health system. We need smaller health bonuses spread around more evenly, both in the various virtue trees and in other game systems.
     
  17. VCrakeV

    VCrakeV Prince

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    What I find the big problem to be is the health limit. Since you need x population for a city to produce x health, expanding is quite difficult. That, and it's stupid that you have to increase population (which increases unhealth) to increase health...
     
  18. Galgus

    Galgus Emperor

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    Agreed, there is no balance between hurting for health early and it being a total nonfactor later.
     
  19. Gritf

    Gritf Chieftain

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    I dislike the idea of going trought the whole game and seeing my health in red. How about decreasing unhealth per city to 3 and increasing the penalties per unhealth? That way we wouldn't see the those jumps in health all around but still care about it
     
  20. aguliondew

    aguliondew Prince

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    Lets looks at health gain from virtues:
    - Might
    Public Security: +0.25 Health for every Military Unit under your command
    (2-6) Health. By end game I have 15-20units no matter my empire size but at early game 5-6
    1-3.2 health per city
    - Prosperity
    Tier 2 synergy bonus: 1 health per city (6-10)Health
    Mind over Matter: (7) health
    0.6-1.1 health per city
    Joy From Variety: +1 Health from every type of Basic Resource that is improved
    (5-12) Health depending on what basic resources are in the area
    1-2.4 health per city
    Eudaimonia: 15% less negative health
    12 health ~6 cities 80 negative health
    23 health ~10 cities 150 negative health
    (12-23) Health 2-2.1 health per city
    - Knowledge
    Community Medicine: +1 Health for every 6 Population in a City
    At end game it yields are ok, but if you get it at the start it is only worth 1-3 health
    11 health 4 cities 20-25 pop (was focus on all food techs :p)
    8 health 6 cities 3-15 pop
    12 health 8 cities 5-20
    (8-12) Health 1.3 health per city on my average game play
    - Industry
    Profiteering: +0.5 health for every trade unit under your command.
    (6-10)health 1-1.5 health per city
    Magnasanti: Each City generates +0.2 Health for every Building
    Upto 25build per city ~6 buildings in your capital if you rush for it early.
    (8-50health) 1.2-5 health per city

    The amount of health gained by end game from virtues(assuming 6-10 size empires):
    Might 6, Knowledge 13, Prosperity 52 and Industry 60 health. The last health virtues in prosperity/industry are so powerful. Those virtues make might/knowledge secondary.
     

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