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(Rising Tide)So no Virtues nor TechWeb Overhaul ?

Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by Gokudo01, Aug 15, 2015.

  1. Gritf

    Gritf Chieftain

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    There are other things to consider thought. Knowledge increases science to grab techs that might grant health by buildings or biowells or whathever. The extra spy might do the same by stealing random techs and mitigating the loss on science when -10%. The plus culture lets you leap into other virtue branches.

    Might facilitates getting science by means other than research, to keep expanding by military conquest, increasing affinity exp and reaching higher levels of intrigue to keep on stealing instead of building on your own.

    I believe the devs thought that those two virtues trees would care less about health and instead would compensate by other means. Althougt I still they are kinda underpowered. For example, knowledge is about growing tall, but instead of helping to go that way it forces you into it.
     
  2. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    60 Health from Industry? Are you assuming that every single building is constructed? Because that number, especially given that it's bigger than the one from Prosperity, seems rather unrealistic to me.

    But I actually think the Health that is available in all trees is fine. You pretty much always have enough Culture to mix 2 trees (if not naturally, then with Culture Conversion in Cities), so not every tree needs the health to support a whole empire. Might works quite good in combination with Prosperity and Knowledge WOULD work with both, Industry and Prosperity if the games lasted longer.
     
  3. aguliondew

    aguliondew Prince

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    Yea, virtue are suppose to be balanced around the entire game. Taking might early if you have alien nest close to you or play with frenzy aliens. Knowledge can be very powerful for a tall empire but health problems will still happen until late game. The first virtue in knowledge is misleading. You think you can stay health all game but it only happen before you expand and once are starting your victory techs.

    I was just looking at my biggest city on one of my longer playthroughs 315turn victory 25building ARC. The health value from the knowledge tree should be improved to 5 instead of 6 pop. I just want focusing on one virtue tree to be more viable instead of always getting 10 virtues in 2 trees and ignoring the tier 3 synergy bonuses (because they are not good).



    You can estimate the value of a spy in terms of science. Max rank spy increases success by 15% or decrease an enemies chance by 20%. 15-25% of the beaker for the tech you are researching with a 65% chance of success in 18 turns. Assuming you are stealing science for outer ring techs (350-700 science) you get 12~24sci per turn with a max rank spy. Steal a random tech with a 50% chance of success. Stealing techs are random but can be very broken when you get the affinity point of research LEV tanks during midgame. Stealing techs 500-3200sci, 50% chance of success, 18 turns equals 13~88sci per turn. Getting an extra spy early helps a lot.
     
  4. VCrakeV

    VCrakeV Prince

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    Does Joy from Variety give health based on how many tiles you have with basic resources, or is it based on the variety (ex: 2 tiles of reslin only gives you 1 health). If the latter is true, I can't see anyone getting 12 health from this.
     
  5. aguliondew

    aguliondew Prince

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    It is based on the variety of basic resource not the amount. Their are 12 different basic resources.
     
  6. Halbbruder

    Halbbruder Prince

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    It's still situational with the success rate and survival rate. To maximize success in this approach and factoring in CivBERT, you would need the subtle trait, preferably be ARC and hope that the spies don't fail. In MP, unless they change the approach to being (un)able to spy on other players' capitals without actually exploring them (game is still inconsistent on this), you will also need to explore a lot to maximize opportunities.

    Speaking of health, it might also be nice to add a city process that converts production into health (something like 10% of production into health, rather than 25%) and then maybe amend a virtue in knowledge that increases the conversion rate by 100% to 20% conversion. As for might, increasing the scale from +1 health per 2 military units would also help.

    Another method to improve health would be to increase % of health per spy in HQ (propaganda) and then the extra spy in knowledge is more useful there.
     
  7. VCrakeV

    VCrakeV Prince

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    BE needs to stop using virtues as a crutch. I like the virtue system, and i think it should stay, but the health system shouldn't be based on virtues. As it stands now, the virtues you have make or break your health. It's almost impossible to have good health without health virtues (which are either minimal or absurd). Some health can be in the virtue trees, but the amount in them now is just too much.



    Maybe it can be made so that population doesn't limit health, but you need a lot of health to make a difference. That way you can't spam health buildings and improvements for heaps of health, but you aren't pressured into growing mega cities before expanding.



    And about health improvements: The only one I know of is the biowell, but I know a mod that yields health from basic resource tiles (when improved). This would be great in my suggested system (though the value would have to decrease with the other values).
     
  8. Zenstrive

    Zenstrive Ocean King

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    I once had a playthrough with crazy amount of healths, I think >70.
    The virtues really help.
    It is like the current modern cities: small cities tend to have worse health facility than larger cities, but larger cities have their own potential health-damaging problems, which are mitigated by laws, health supports, etc, which are essentially what virtues are.
    Also the health bonues from building virtue synergy nicely with affinities. Gain affinities that give you health-boosting buildings, and build them all to give you their bonuses and the building-health bonus. Build every building available to you to gain the health bonus and their quest bonus, even those that are looks stupid to build, like building specialist buildings in a city that barely has food.
    On virtues itself, I usually open with Prosperity, Knowledge virtues, then go down knowledge until all penalties for having many cities are reduced, than get the ones that give your bonus virtue, knowledge per tiles, then I move to Industry and beeline to health per building one, then go back to the one that ives 5 energy in city capital and beeline satellite bonus.
    Then I go back to knowledge to fill it to bonus cultures from wonders.
    Energies shouldn't be an issue if you use Industry tree and Solar Collector
     
  9. omniclast

    omniclast Prince

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    I see two big problems with the virtue trees. One, you rely on them to get healthy, since there are no other sources of global health in the game (barring the 2% spy which is pretty meh). And two there's just a lot of really bad, boring virtues that no one should ever take.

    Rather than boosting health in Might and Knowledge I'd rather see more health from buildings/resources early game, or dropping cities to -3 as someone suggested. That would leave us free to consider what kind of bonuses we actually want, rather than being forced to take one of a handful of virtue paths that maximize health.

    Worst-case, the health diplomacy traits are going to become the new Eudaimonia/Magnasanti, the obvious choice you can't afford not to take. That would really suck.
     
  10. Halbbruder

    Halbbruder Prince

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    Well for you, the best approach would be to nerf eudaimonia again to 10% and magnasanti to 1 health per 8 buildings in a city. Let prosperity keep the other health bonuses, because it is the wide tree. Otherwise, you haven't really explained why this is a bad thing. The minimal health bonuses are usually early so you can have some other forms of controlling it as you develop. The later ones are supposed to set you up for the late game and they encourage you to go deep into the virtue to get them. Without them, the game would discourage you from going wide. You got science penalty that does that.

    Getting back to Might and Knowledge, they just need a better health scale and they're fine.
     
  11. Lord Tirian

    Lord Tirian Erratic Poster

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    Part of the problem is that the virtue trees are the main sources of late game health, turning the main use of the virtue system into a culture-to-health machine.

    As a result, following the other trees becomes largely suboptimal as it means forsaking the main mechanism for health without compensation. If late game techs opened a path to new health bonuses, then Knowledge at least could compete by getting good buildings.

    Sent from my phone, please excuse terseness and typos.
     
  12. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    Well, that's true, but I have to agree with Halbbruder here - don't see how that is automatically a bad thing.

    The health you get from virtue trees is not enough to completely ignore health from buildings (at least early on, but that's the scaling problem that has already been talked about) and there are lots of ways to combine virtues to get enough health to "not drop into insane negative numbers", "stay neutral" or "get a solid green number".

    All of the trees also have their uses, it's not like the "need for health" renders any of them useless. You can totally go for might early on to use its bonuses to conquer or farm science (although I consider that a bad idea), then combine it with another tree to stay in manageable health later on. Knowledge is by its very design a lategame-tree, and if the game actually had a "lategame", it would also work just fine.

    And what many people seem to forget is that the high health that can be achieved with Prosperity is just their way of having actual "empire bonuses" that then translates into indirect Culture/Science (while Industry gets tons of raw production and Knowledge gets tons of raw culture/science).
     
  13. Barathor

    Barathor Emperor

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    I think it might be really interesting if, in the next expansion, they introduce a single resource type that acts somewhat like a luxury. It could simply be referred to as Elixir, and its distributed throughout the map and grants a health bonus. Much like strategic resources, it's quantified, and some plots can be a very potent source of it and grant a higher health bonus. Also, the bonus isn't granted by "type" like luxuries, but by each resource worked, so each copy is beneficial. You won't be trading these, just acquiring them; thankfully, the old trading system of swapping resources is gone anyway.

    Of course, the whole health system and its sources would need to be reviewed, but it probably already needs a bit of that. This also enforces a bit more of "expand or die!", but I'm all in favor of that in strategy games, especially 4X ones -- as long as you have to work at it and pace yourself to prevent things from collapsing because rapidly expanding without penalties isn't very fun. Perhaps the improvements placed upon these elixir resources work somewhat like the cottages of Civ 4: the bonus starts out small, but the longer they're worked the higher the health gained from them until it reaches the plot's cap value.

    I'm also really hoping for psionics to be introduced in the next expansion. So, not only would this elixir resource fortify health and prolong life, but it also starts to develop (or awaken) psionic powers in those that continue to consume it. So, this special resource would also give off a special psionic yield that players collect and spend on unique powers in some tree or list (yes, another one!); somewhat like faith. If you hold onto the yield and save it up, gifted ones can start emerging in your cities which can do some neat things or unlock greater psionic capabilities to spend points on.

    (Yes, this sounds a bit Dune'ish -- that's part of what inspired this idea.)

    If non-playable, powerful alien factions are also introduced to threaten (not just "militarily") players mid-game and beyond, perhaps this elixir resource and its psionic capabilities can be a key towards leveling the playing field against them a little more.

    (Now it's starting to sound a bit XCOM'ish!)
     
  14. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    Funny. I'm actually currently (well, not currently-currently) working on a mod that does a very similar thing to Resilin. ^^ Just that there doesn't seem to be any way to restrict trading and still have in a countable resource. :(
     
  15. Barathor

    Barathor Emperor

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    Cool! I'll be looking forward to it.

    I may have something in the works too, but it's just all random notes and ideas right now while I focus on other things. :mischief:
     
  16. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    Not sure why we need a luxury resource to give us health. There is already plenty of ways to get health (buildings, virtues and now traits). And there is plenty to reward exploration (artifacts, progenitor ruins, derelict settlements, resource pods, marvels and affinity resources).
     
  17. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    I don't think we need to (In fact I've argued against people who want to bring that old Luxury-System back because I find it extremely limiting when it comes to expanding), but I liked the idea of having some "Global" (not really global, but pseudo-global in terms of my mod) health that still requires investing more than just a few virtues. Getting Resilin on the map is only one way I plan on allowing players to gain Resilin.
     
  18. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    I agree. The new artifacts system looks to drive a lot more exploration than there is in Vanilla.
     
  19. Lord Tirian

    Lord Tirian Erratic Poster

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    On the other hand, unlike luxury resources, it does not seem to drive expansion/land-grabs which lead to conflict.

    While RT is shaping up nicely, I don't see much that drives conflicts, which also ties back into the uselessness of the Might virtue tree.
     
  20. Minor Annoyance

    Minor Annoyance Deity

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    Luxuries did at least give a clear return. 1 luxury is worth one new city. Currently there's nothing in BE that gives a clear reason why I need a specific location. There are bonuses, but rarely enough to make the location a must have.
     

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