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(Rising Tides) Quill 18's Chungsu Gameplay

Discussion in 'CivBE - General Discussions' started by Veras, Sep 29, 2015.

  1. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    With the way affinity points are spread out and with the new affinity quests in late game, I am pretty sure that hybrids will have no trouble getting the victory conditions. That is the whole point to the tweaks that the devs made.
     
  2. omniclast

    omniclast Prince

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    Well, no. You'll just get whatever side affinity comes along as you go for your primary affinity. That's not the same thing as hybrids having access to VCs. More importantly though, I doubt you're going to get to 9/9 or above just picking up occasional secondary affinity points. Not if you then have to get an extra 6 levels in your primary affinity to win.

    And I mean, they said they changed the VCs to make them accessible. And it looks like they just didn't. I really don't think you can count the affinity redistribution through the tech web (which is a good change on its own) as a change to the VCs. I can't help but feel a bit frustrated by that, since the VCs still are the biggest outstanding problem with the game.
     
  3. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    I guess what I should have said is that the techs that give you say purity and supremacy points are most likely close to both the purity and supremacy victory requirements. So if you are going for a purity-supremacy hybrid, you will be able to fairly easily pick either the purity victory or the supremacy victory. A player who is say 10/10 in purity/supremacy will be able to get the techs they need or do affinity quests to get the extra 5 levels in either purity or supremacy to get the victory they want. Those victories won't be out of reach.
     
  4. Westwall

    Westwall Emperor

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    This is why it raised a red flag for me when all those games they showed involving all those top tier hybrid units running around were only made possible by artificially dumping affinity points into the game. Seems that's probably the only way you would ever get that far into hybridization without sacrificing your victory objectives.
     
  5. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    But someone who went straight for 15 Purity Affinity would get there far sooner than someone who wasted their time picking up 10 levels of supremacy.... 5 levels of Supremacy I can see getting as a side effect of your tech path, but getting up to 10.10 is a waste when you could get 15.5 FAR sooner.

    as designed,
    There are no hybrid players/empires, you/your faction is always (after early neutral period) one of the core affinities and you get some small hybrid bonuses for those off affinity points you get along the way.
     
  6. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    It seems like hybrids won't be so great going for pure affinity victories, but they will probably be better for domination and neutral for Contact.
     
  7. LORD ORION

    LORD ORION Warlord

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    Remember affinity points don't work the same way they did before (you research a specific tech and get points in one affinity)

    Now you research tech and you get a certain spread of affinity points.

    Having said that, there will always be an optimal path to victory... it will just be funny if it means you need to do weird crap in the tech tree you wouldn't do in vanilla BE.
     
  8. Ryika

    Ryika Lazy Wannabe Artista

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    Quill said on Reddit yesterday that he hasn't seen any changes to make Hybrid Affinities able to achieve the Affinity Victory Conditions, so either it's not in the build yet... or the 20 times they have repeated that "We have changed victory conditions so hybrid affinities can reach them!"-line in interviews were just repeating the same false information. I certainly hope it's the former... but I wouldn't be surprised it's the ladder.

    /edit: Ah nevermind, just saw that "Q&A"-video. Well, I don't know what the developers are thinking, but it seems to me that their reasoning is pretty nonsensical and that Hybrid-Affinities will just be straight-out worse at pursuing Affinity Victories.
     
  9. Westwall

    Westwall Emperor

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    Kind of like how they kept saying "hybrids aren't averages," but forgot to mention that they're now essentially half-baked affinities.

    Forever in feature limbo.
     
  10. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    The way I saw it happen is that Hybrid Affinities aren't new affinities in them itself.

    A Level 2 Harmony and Level 2 Purity automatically unlocks a Level 2 Harmony/Purity.

    So it's not like you "work" towards them they just happen naturally as you unlock the others so you still focus on a single affinity but you now gain bonuses if you have point sin other afinities.
     
  11. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Warlord

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    What I don't understand is how you're going to hit a hybrid level for a majority of your units BEFORE you hit the "pure" level and upgrade.

    Take your base soldier for example. I forgot to check if they changed the requirements, but I think they hit tier 3 at around 9 or 10 of one affinity right (maybe earlier?).

    Can you even change them once upgraded? If not that means you've actually got to AVOID techs that you might want so you can race up another affinity tree to get your hybrid base units
     
  12. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    That was my point... probably about 5 levels coming from randomly picking up 'off' affinity points in techs that either
    1. share affinity with your core
    2. are on the way to a core affinity tech
    3. are included on a tech that's really useful despite not having your core affinity xp present

    10 levels are less likely because your 'non core' affinity levels cost more.
     
  13. omniclast

    omniclast Prince

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    I agree, and it really bums me out. It would have been so easy to just add a hybrid requirement to the preexisting VCs. It would have been messy and ad hoc, but at least all the neat new mixed affinity stuff wouldn't be for nothing.

    @Eji1700 : You can "ignore" affinity upgrades when you get them, and wait for the upgrade you actually want (similar to promotion deferral). Your units will still increase in cost but they won't get the strength increase or perks until you actually do take an upgrade (which you can do at any time afterwards).
     
  14. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    Well at least you're going into this with an open mind . . .
     
  15. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    But isn't that the whole strategy consideration that players are supposed to make? You can go straight affinity and try to win by an affinity victory quickly but miss out on hybrid bonuses or you can go hybrid and probably fall behind for an affinity victory but get bonuses that can help in domination or other areas. There are pros and cons to both approaches. Strategy games are supposed to give players these choices to make.
     
  16. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    The hybrid upgrades are lower level than the 'core' ones
    for example
    Soldiers get 3 upgrades
    1. any affinity L1
    2. Any of the Core affinities L6
    3. any of the core affinities L 11 OR L6 in 2 core affinities (hybrid)

    So you can reach the Hybrid before getting the core upgrade (unless you are focusing 100% into that core affinity)

    I agree with that, but they implied the Affinity Victories had been made achievable by someone with significant hybrid affinities. (which they already technically were, in base BE you could build the Emancipation gate with 13 Supremacy and 16 Harmony 16 Purity... and it seems you technically could now as well...just 15 Supremacy 16 Harmony 16 Purity)

    If they said that pursuing Hybrid affinity means pursuing a non-Affinity victory, they would have been honest.
     
  17. Barathor

    Barathor Emperor

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    I think I need to play this firsthand to see how everything really flows and feels; I've only watched bits of the long playthrough videos.

    Maybe things work and feel fine, I don't know. But part of me feels like these entirely new hybrid themes have painted them into a corner. Why even bother with drastically changing the look of nearly all your units if hybridization is just a "addon" to your primary affinity (which apparently you still have to dive into if you plan on winning your unique victory).

    I've said this before -- I felt that the three original primary themes were awesome in vanilla, even if things weren't working so well gameplay-wise. Now, we get three more unique themes thrown into the mix, which are definitely cool looking as well, but they're incomplete and clash with existing things.

    I kind of wish Firaxis just went the simple route of just adding 4 new units to each of the primary affinities (2 for each hybridization types). They wouldn't be white or anything, they'd match the existing primary affinity and things would look seamless. Keep all the other hybrid bonuses and things, that stuff is great. But aesthetically, keep the each of the three affinities themes tight and consistent (even the hybrid sectored city graphics would be fine with this).

    - - - - - - - -

    Example:

    Your primary is Purity.

    If you dabble in Harmony as well, you get the Architect (which would look like a Purity unit).
    If you gain more Purity and more Harmony, you get the Throne (again, Purity look).

    If you dabble in Supremacy, you get the Drone Cage (a Purity looking soldier, controlling tan/red flying drones)
    If you gain more Purity and Supremacy, you get the Autosled (a hovering Purity looking vehicle).

    The hybrid units don't unlock at a small number of X and X. You always have to have a higher amount of your primary. This way you're not unlocking 2 Purity/Harmony units AND 2 Harmony/Purity units (they're different) at the same time. This way, you're still mainly pursuing your primary affinity, but off-affinities can become a slight distraction for some additional bonuses and units. You could even, for example as Purity, dabble a bit in both Harmony and Supremacy to unlock 2 new first-tier units in each. But again, all four of those units would look like Purity units and would look like they belong in your army.

    - - - - - - - -

    Existing units:

    PURITY / harmony
    Architect
    Throne: both of these can easily look like Purity units. The throne could probably look MUCH cooler with all the traditional embellishment, like banners and things, that Purity likes to put on their vehicles.

    PURITY / supremacy
    Drone Cage: a guy controlling drones, can easily become Purity. Isn't the AEGIS a controlled robot too?
    Autosled: it's basically a vehicle filled with soldiers, easily Purity.

    HARMONY / purity
    Immortal: could totally gain the Harmony theme and look more alien. (A bigger/badder Brawler/Marauder type of soldier)
    [new unit]

    HARMONY / supremacy
    Geliopod: this could easily be made into some type of chameleon-like creature which ambushes enemies. (would be much cooler) Maybe it has some type of weapon mounted onto it for a little more machine representation. Or maybe the machine component is what cloaks the creature.
    [new unit]

    SUPREMACY / purity
    Golem: could easily turn dark gray and yellow and be given sharper geometry, like Supremacy. It's just a robot.
    [new unit]

    SUPREMACY / harmony
    Nanohive: again, can easily be made to look more Supremacy. It's just a robot with little nano-bots flying out of it.
    Aquilon: the existing one is cool, but this could just become some type of new aircraft that looks Supremacy, and fitting the Supremacy theme, has aircrafts swarming out of it. (A bit difficult to have this as an interesting creature for Harmony when you have tacjets in it, veers too much toward machine and not enough organism).

    - - - - - - - -

    Again, haven't played RT yet, but I think this approach would've been so much better. The primary themes would've remained strong and consistent, but you'd have the benefits of hybridizing and the lore behind them. We'd still get plenty of cool new units and abilities, but for example, our sharp, cool looking Supremacy units won't suddenly turn into round, white Apple Inc. units which don't match our cities, improvements, and a small group of other units.
     
  18. SupremacyKing2

    SupremacyKing2 Deity

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    Well, I think this is a case of devs not being clear and/or some players misinterpreting what they say. It is like how some players took the one dev quote about "hybrids are not just averages" and assumed we were getting full fledged new affinities. Similarly, players assumed by the quote that we were either getting unique hybrid victories or that the core affinity victories were getting a complete make-over.
     
  19. Eji1700

    Eji1700 Warlord

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    I get that, but you still have a higher total affinity level in 6/6 vs 11 pure. Now is suppose it's possible with the new balance that around the time you hit 6 in one you'll see that you're at 3 in another and think it's easier to race that up, but I'm skeptical that it'll work that way in practice. Do we have a screenshot of the new tech web yet?
     
  20. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    It is easier to go from 4->5 than from 14->15 in any particular affinity.

    In Vanilla BE the cost of going up a level was
    1. How high That affinity was
    2. Was that your 'main' affinity (non-main were more expensive past level 4)

    Of course it is also easier to get the first 10 xp in an affinity than the later 10 xp (because those later 10 xp will be on an expensive tech compared to the first 10 xp)

    So in vanilla 6.6 would be more easily reached than 11. (there was no reason to do so however)

    They could have changed the formulas anyway they wanted, but I'm guessing the early levels in an affinity are still easier to get than the later ones.
     

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