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River vs Non-River City Settling

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Nov 19, 2016.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Yeah.
     
  2. Aldebaran1997

    Aldebaran1997 Prince

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    I like this idea which I told in version release thread.
     
  3. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    +3F+3P 1f+p/5c Water Mill seems like a fine solution to me. It'll be considerably better early than before, but its scaling won't be as good.
     
  4. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Honestly I think the better way to balence them is to move the watermill to wheel, reduce the cost to the same as the well, and then you can either equalize the gains or give it 3f/3p as mentioned. (Depending on how you want rivers versus non-rivers balanced.)

    Unless the watermill gave 5/5 or 3/3 + 1/1 per 3 pop scaling, I'd rather have the well because it's available much earlier. The early game is extremely important on higher difficulties, and I'll take any advantage I can get now over having problems later.

    For example even if you made CERN automatically win you a science victory, I feel like it would only change the outcome of 1 in 1000 games (As in the person who would have won pre-buff doesn't win because of making CERN OP.), as the game is normally decided by that point and the projected winner is almost always leading on techs if they haven't already won via culture, domination or voting.

    Even though you've made the AI much more fair early and much more talented later, I find on deity and immortal the AI tends to have an early lead and still falls off as the game goes on. That means anything to neutralize their lead and help me snowball ahead of them is huge.

    Would I build a well in every city ASAP? No, of course not.

    Would I sometimes wait until the time watermills come out to build a well, because I need to keep building units or other more mission critical things? Yeah, probably.

    That doesn't mean that having the option to build a well extremely quickly isn't useful as hell, and something I want in my toolbox.

    So while making it available at the wheel is the more boring balance decision, it's also the safest and surest imo. Otherwise it's extremely hard to make the watermill good enough to justify an extra hundred turns of waiting (the real cost) and not OP to the point that rivers are necessary to settle on.
     
  5. Coilean

    Coilean Warlord

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    What about adding something like a one time food boost or +1 pop bonus to the watermill when completed? That would help make up for it's delayed timing and increased cost, while not adding any scaling effects.
     
  6. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Currently getting a great building in the well at mining is good for tech choices though. If the well was at masonry that makes the bottom half of the tech tree a lot weaker, I would say it really hurts starting with a luxury that needs mining to improve (which includes forest plantations). You would also need to change or buff the Fertility pantheon (buffs shrines and wells) because that is a strategy where you do build well first or second in every city. I think the current locations in the tech tree are fine

    I actually think that the watermill could have a bit more scaling power and not be OP, the earlier hammers from the well scale just by coming earlier, but the above suggestion is also fine
     
  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    One idea I want to challenge is whether the tech difference truly matters as much as people are mentioning. There's no question that watermills come later. But when you consider the fact that a city wants to build:

    1) Monuments
    2) Shrines
    3) Granaries
    4) Maybe a scout or a worker
    5) Maybe some military units.

    Its not that your necessarily building the well/watermill right out of the gate. So at what point is a city actually ready to build that watermill but can't due to not hitting the tech yet?
     
  8. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    Early on the watermill or well is better than the Granary if there's not 2 or so worked tiles to improve, on account of the production that the 15% spillover isn't as productive.

    Additionally as an Authority opening building the well as you're researching bronze-working right away is very normal, because you don't want to take up your source limit with non-spearmen units. (Who can bully city-states well.)

    Besides, regardless of it being one of the first things you would build the watermill unlocks at masonry. No one beelines it, so that means it's going to take a lot longer than just entering the classical era.

    So maybe not every game, but often enough to matter.
     
  9. Galbias

    Galbias Prince

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    Wells will usually be the 2nd or 3rd thing I build in cities after my capital if they're an option, after Monument and sometimes Shrine.

    I like the idea of changing Watermill to be 3/3 with the same scaling as Well. Well is going to be slightly better since it comes earlier, but Water Mill would then be nearly as good since it has enough initial yields to make up for the higher cost.
     
  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    At this point, is it really worth having the watermill at all, instead of just giving wells to everyone? There is a food vs gold difference already, the river maintains the bath as its true solid bonus, and then you have the hydroplant vs wind plant late game to differentiate them again.

    No one seems to question that the well is a fine building, and I don't think cities really need more food/production so early in the game for the 3/3. What are we holding on to with the watermill?
     
    vyyt likes this.
  11. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Options. I don't like the idea of reducing them. Watermills didn't appear any time near the implementation of wells. Keeping it further back and using it as an either/or with the windmill, like tu79 suggested, sounds good to me.
     
    tu_79 likes this.
  12. joosegoose25

    joosegoose25 King

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    What about as an either/or with the well itself, like the Aztec situation in non-river cities? You can still build the Well early if it's that important, or you can wait for the Watermill to unlock for (at least what should be) superior yields.
     
  13. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Not bad, though it doesn't make much sense to build watermills in non-river cities, don't you think? The point was to make different locations feel different but even.
     
  14. joosegoose25

    joosegoose25 King

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    Agreed. I meant that river cities would get the option, rather than being forced to wait for the Watermill (same thing happens with the Aztecs in their non-river locations). This would be coupled with the proposed change to 3/3 base yields of course.
     
    Aldebaran1997 and ElliotS like this.
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    The AI has a hard time with either/or situations.
     
  16. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

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    I mean if the AI always choose to build the well until the watermill was invented, then decided to build the watermill when it could it wouldn't hurt it. That's probably what I would do.
     
  17. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    If I understand correctly, you are proposing the following:
    A) Well (requires watermill not built), Watermill (requires river and well not built)
    What I was proposing was:
    B) Well (no reqs), watermill (requires river and windmill not built), windmill (requires watermill not built), fabric (requieres watermill or windmill)
    What it's going to happen, because G likes more :p :
    C) Watermill slightly stronger base.

    In A, non river cities would build the well ASAP, while in river cities it would depend on the land wealth, if it is rich enough, it can delay the extra growth and production for a better growth and production later. So, typically, non river starts would be stronger for a while, but river starts can shine in renaissance.
    In B, both river and non river starts with a simmilar production, but in river locations there's more food, so river cities would grow faster (as expected). Then in classical, only river cities can opt for an early boost to growth and production or wait for a building with better production. So, river cities with watermills and baths would have more population and bonus to work the guilds, while non river cities and river cities that wait for windmills would have more raw production and cheaper buildings.
    In C, non river cities will have a stronger early production, while river cities become stronger by middle age with more culture, typically more food and simmilar production.

    With my proposal, river cities can become cultural powerhorses at the cost of weaker production or be just like any other non river city, with stronger production, while the difference is small in the early game (meaning that it is nice to settle on a river, but not mandatory).
     
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  18. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    I'd like to renew Well vs Water Mill discussion, cause in my previous game i understood how bad is it now to settle on rivers. Seriously, you don't want to settle on river.

    Just compare:
    Well: provides +2:c5food:/+1:c5production:, cost 65:c5production:, available on turn 15
    Water Mill: provides +2:c5food:/+3:c5production:, cost 150:c5production: available on turn 115

    Early well gives you huge boost, for example, every settler will take ~3 turns less to build. Why Watermill an well are so far away from each other, while they are almost the same? Watermill should be better and should be available earlier, maybe Construction
     
  19. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Well also gives you access to the best pantheon in the game, Goddess of Fertility. That's a massive over-exaggeration, but GoF is great, and settling on rivers kills it, so I tend to just straight up avoid rivers at this point.
     
  20. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Exactly. Me and my friend currently call it "curse of a river" in our games
     

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