Road to War - Historical

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Road to War' started by kiwitt, Oct 5, 2009.

  1. fireclaw722

    fireclaw722 Imperial Guard

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    I'd like to see a WWII mod for Civ5(even better would be a WWI mod, but I'm going to try to learn to mod just for that:p).
     
  2. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    I am having a bit of a struggle working out how to add aircraft for minor nations. I have studied the performance characteristics of all aircraft produced and created a speadsheet to determine the Civ4 values. All looks good.

    But I am coming to conclusion that it may be easy to give them basic fighters and bombers and then let their upgrades be major nation hand-me-downs. e.g. Bf109 becomes Hungarys improved fighter.
     
  3. fireclaw722

    fireclaw722 Imperial Guard

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    The only thing that would draw me away from that would be that the Basic Fighters and Bombers cost alot to build and could be upgraded cheaply to their Improved counter-parts(Although in a 1939 scenario it wouldn't be much of a problem, as Improved Fighters are just a tech or two away).
     
  4. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    I should have used better words ;), you can not upgrade from one to the other, just have the ability to build newer units. i.e. You can build 50 basic fighters, 50 improved fighters and about 10 Jet fighters. Which is your maximums for each unit class.

    This seems more "historical". The built aircaft did not disappear, but were simply relegated to lesser roles. i.e. when I am playing Germany, I place the bf.109 on interception duties and move my fw190s to the frontline.

    So in the case of the lesser nations they will still have the Basic fighters, and then they will have to build the improved fighters from scratch, i.e. no upgrade option.
     
  5. fireclaw722

    fireclaw722 Imperial Guard

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    Thats true. I would have some the same, i.e:
    • Nationalist Spain: Bf109, Imp. Fighter, Jet Fighter
    • Vichy France: Fighter(I would pefer this over the French fighter, because the Vichy used German fighters, and they didn't surrender until 1940[which the Germans had FW190a's then]), FW190a, Me262


    Another thing I might do is add in(or code) it where one could buy or sell naval, air, or tanks(this could allow the option of someone trying to help their future allies). You could check at RoM in the AND forum(Afforess did this with his 'Advanced Diplomacy' modmod). I know this part might end up better at the WWII 1939 mod, but it would make RTW better.

    Not to try to bag or nothing, but as you[kiwitt] said:
    (or something along those lines).
     
  6. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    I am considering adding the follwoing;

    * Arabia (from UE)
    * Persia (From UE)
    * Govts-in-Exile

    The last one is where e.g. Poland, Baltic, Low-countries, Norway/Denmark, etc. have isolated locations where they can continue in play albeit at very low resource levels. These will simply be 1 population towns with names like "Poland-in-Exile".

    * Portugal to be assigned to Ireland

    Another Neutral country closer to it and not Sweden like it currently is. This will reduce the power of Sweden
     
  7. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    Change of Plan ... I will make Portugal a country in it's own right.

    I have already successfully added "Switzerland" as a nation.
     
  8. FNP

    FNP Chieftain

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    .....................................
    Good idea. Most "second hand" material found its way into the hands of allies. If you want a review of your spreadsheet I'll be happy to look it over.

    FNP
     
  9. FNP

    FNP Chieftain

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    Most countries that were "neutral" stayed that way because there was no economic or strategic value in having them as allies and there was no reason to dedicate valuable forces required to occupy them.
     
  10. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    The reason I am adding additional nations is that during World War Two some nations did play a role. e.g. in 1941 there was the Anglo-Soviet invasion of Persia.

    I am adding Arabia to give some threat to the British in Iraq.

    Here is the spreadsheet. It is still a work in progress as I am currently diverted to adding some more nations. ;)

    Tab 1 is the raw performance data for individual stats.
    Tab 2 is list of aircraft some nations had
    Tab 3 is the list of aircraft I will be assigning - work in progress.
     
  11. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    I am also considering adding Elite Units as a using the Marine and Airborne Classes

    1) British Commandos, which will have huge bonuses versus siege weapons and try to make them invisible of unknown nationality (Small in Size but a lethal punch)
    2) US Rangers and Airborne Troops (Highly mobile)
    3) German SS and PG Divisions (Always had the latest equipment)
    4) Italian Blackshirts (albeit poor combat)
    5) Russian "Guards" units (however many were in name only and were similar to other regular units

    So much to research .... :(

    Still with Civ 5 coming out and being like a real "wargame" - no more stacks of doom or city combat, this reasearch will not be for naught.
     
  12. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    Just testing the file sizes for Road to War - Historical.

    * Without Movies it is 70 MB
    * With Movies it is 283 MB
     
  13. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    Aiming for April release date.
     
  14. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    FNP's Review
    Thanks for this. I'll Incorporate the changes into my calculations.

    One of the reasons I used maximum range in my range calculations was, that was all that was available in the data. So I made an estimate that the combat range would be slightly less than half the maximum range.
     
  15. FNP

    FNP Chieftain

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    Completely agree with your combat radius estimate. Given the great discrepancies in performance figures, getting exact numbers is really tough. Great job on all the research.

    FNP
     
  16. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    Thanks for that.

    I am kind of lucky that WWII is my interest as well. While researching one piece of data I am easily distracted by further related links and am learning new info every day. The website you supplied is going to be some good reading too! Especially the Pilot Reports :)

    My goal is to make "The Road to War - Historical" as accurate as possible, given the limitations of the Civ4 / RtW codebase.
     
  17. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    Something to consider

    Spoiler :
    It is impressive I wonder whst the total unit strength of all allied tank divisions.

    Did find this lot, though I cannot guarentee their source

    WWII Death Count Per Country:
    Country Military Civilian Total
    USSR 12 million 17 million 29 million
    Poland 597,000 5.86 million 6.27 million
    Germany 3.25 million 2.44 million 5.69 million
    Yugoslavia 305,000 1.35 million 1.66 million
    Romania 450,000 465,000 915,000
    Hungary 200,000 600,000 800,000
    France 245,000 350,000 595,000
    Italy 380,000 153,000 533,000
    Great Britain 403,000 92,700 495,000
    United States 407,000 6,000 413,000
    Czechoslovakia 7,000 315,000 322,000
    Holland 13,700 236,000 249,000
    Greece 19,000 140,000 159,000
    Belgium 76,000 23,000 99,000


    Death Distribution Of Both World Wars War Military Dead Civilian Dead
    WWI 95% 5%
    WWII 33% 67%


    Number of divisions available for these countries over the course of the war:

    Country 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 End of War
    France 86 105 0 0 5 7 14 14
    Germany* 78 189 235 261 327 347 319 375
    Great Britain 9 34 35 38 39 37 31 31
    Italy 6 73 64 89 86 2 9 10
    Poland 43 2 2 2 2 5 5 5
    Romania 11 28 33 31 33 32 24 24
    USSR 194 200 220 250 350 400 488 491
    USA** 8 24 39 76 95 94 94 94
    *towards the end of the war, many of these divisions were either incomplete or poorly equipped
    **including both Army and Marine divisions and accounting for the Pacific theater

    Aircraft Available In Europe
    Date British US Soviet TOTAL German Allied Ratio
    June 1942 9500 0 2100 11,600 3700 3.1:1
    December 1942 11,300 1300 3800 16,400 3400 4.8:1
    June 1943 12,700 5000 5600 23,300 4600 5.1:1
    December 1943 11,800 7500 8800 28,100 4700 6:1
    June 1944 13,200 11,800 14,700 39,700 4600 8.6:1
    December 1944 14,500 12,200 15,800 42,500 8500 5:1


    Aircraft Sorties In WWII Campaign
    Allied Axis Allied Kills Per 1000 Axis Kills Per 1000 Allied Lost Per 1000 Axis Lost Per 1000
    France 1940 4480 21,000 28.6 12.5 58.5 6.1
    Britain 1940 31,000 42,000 21.8 29.5 29.5 9.6
    Pre D-Day 1944 98,400 34,500 12.7 29.3 10.3 36.1
    Post D-Day 1944 203,357 31,833 17.3 16.2 2.5 110.6


    Major Warships Sunk In WWII
    Country Aircraft Carriers Battleships Cruisers Destroyers Submarines Total
    Germany 0 4 9 53 994 1060
    Britain 9 5 29 142 75 260
    Italy 0 2 15 99 116 232
    USA* 11 2 10 82 52 157
    France 0 5 10 58 65 138
    USSR 0 0 2 34 95 131
    Holland 0 0 3 11 15 29
    Poland 0 0 1 4 2 9

    *includes figures from the Pacific War

    Civilian Air Raid Deaths Country Deaths
    Germany 543,000
    Britain 60,400



    According to the law of averages, every rifleman from each division would be killed within a year or two
    Overall, there was a 50% chance of a WWII infantryman being killed or wounded
    German/American Rank Conversion Chart Waffen SS Wehrmacht US Army
    Schütze Schütze/Grenadier Private
    Oberschütze Oberschütze/Obergrenadier Private First Class
    Sturmann Gefreiter --
    Rottenführer Obergefreiter Corporal
    Unterscharführer Unteroffizier Sergeant
    Scharführer Unterfeldwebel Staff Sergeant
    Standartenjunker Fähnrich --
    Oberscharführer Feldwebel Technical Sergeant
    Hauptscharführer Oberfeldwebel Master Sergeant
    Standarten-Oberjunker Oberfähnrich --
    Sturmscharführer Stabsfeldwebel Sergeant Major
    Untersturmführer Leutnant Second Lieutenant
    Obersturmführer Oberleutnant First Lieutenant
    Hauptsturmführer Hauptmann Captain
    Sturmbannführer Major Major
    Obersturmbannführer Oberstleutnant Lieutenant Colonel
    Standartenführer Oberst Colonel
    Oberführer -- --
    Brigadeführer Generalmajor Brigadier General
    Gruppenführer Generalleutnant Major General
    Obergruppenführer General der... (Infanterie, etc.) Lieutenant General
    Oberstgruppenführer Generaloberst General
    Reichsführer Generalfeldmarschall General of the Army


    German Occupational Forces, 1939-1940 Country Population Area In Sq. Mi.
    German Forces German Ratio To Population
    Balkans 21 million 403,000 200,000 1:105
    Belgium 8 million 30,400 100,000 1:80
    Denmark 3.6 million 22,700 40,000 1:90
    France 40 million 550,700 500,000 1:80
    Holland 8.5 million 34,200 100,000 1:85
    Norway 2.8 million 324,000 150,000 1:19


    Location Of German Divisions In June Of Each Year
    Country 1941 1942 1943 1944
    USSR 34 171 179 157
    France, Belgium & Holland 38 27 42 56
    Norway & Finland 13 16 16 16
    Balkans 7 8 17 20
    Italy 0 0 0 22
    Denmark 1 1 2 3
    North Africa 2 3 0 0


    A look at fuel consumption of German tanks:
    Year Types Of Tanks In A Division Tons Of Fuel Consumed Per 100 Miles
    1941 PzII, PzIII, PzIV, Pz38 22.1
    1942 PzIII, PzIV 23.7
    1943 PzIII, PzIV, Panther, Tiger 31.7
    1944 PzIV, Panther, Tiger 35.8


    Luftwaffe Aircraft Used Only Against Allied Bombers
    Month Year Percentage
    June 1940 0%
    June 1941 7%
    June 1942 17%
    June 1943 21%
    June 1944 29%
    January 1945 50%



    Germany got 45% of its oil supplies from Romania, which was captured by the Soviets in August 1944
    In spite of fuel shortages, German tank production doubled in 1943 and went up another 50% in 1944
    Oil Production In Tons Year Germany USA
    1939 8 million N/A
    1940 6.7 million N/A
    1941 7.3 million N/A
    1942 7.7 million 184 million
    1943 8.9 million 200 million
    1944 6.4 million 223 million

    Percentage Of German Forces On The Eastern Front Each Year
    Unit 1941 1942 1943 1944
    Divisions 67% 75% 60% 57%
    Troops 84% 74% 72% 40%
    Aircraft 64% 65% 42% 45%



    By D-Day the Germans had 1.5 million railway workers operating 988,000 freight cars and used 29,000 per day
    Germany's casualty statistics:


    By D-Day, 35% of all German soldiers had been wounded at least once,
    11% twice, 6% three times, 2% four times and 2% more than 4 times
    The average officer slot had to be refilled 9.2 times
    Germany lost 136 Generals, which averages out to be 1 dead General every 2 weeks
    Germany lost 110 Division Commanders in combat
    Air attacks caused 1/3 of German Generals' deaths
    84 German Generals were executed by Hitler

    Germany lost 40-45% of their aircraft to accidents
    U-Boat Losses Sunk By 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 Total
    Aircraft Carrier 0 2 3 36 140 68 40 289
    Ships 5 11 24 32 59 68 17 216
    Bombs 0 0 0 0 2 24 36 62
    Mines 3 2 0 3 1 9 7 25
    Submarines 1 2 1 2 4 5 3 18
    Other 0 4 5 6 17 43 17 92
    Total 9 23 35 86 236 235 122 746



    By late 1944, the Waffen SS accounted for 10% of the German military and 25% of the German armor
    German bullets had less flash and smoke than American bullets so it was harder to see where the Germans were firing from
    German Flak Unit 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944
    Heavy Guns 2600 3164 3888 4772 8520 10,600

    Light Guns 6700 8290 9020 10,700 17,500 19,360

    Searchlights 2988 3450 3905 4650 5200 7500

    % Under The Luftwaffe 50% 61% 54% 64% 74% 70%



    Mid-Year Manpower On The Eastern Front Year Soviet German
    1941 5 million 3.3 million
    1942 5 million 3.1 million
    1943 6.2 million 2.9 million
    1944 6.8 million 3.1 million



    80% of Soviet males born in 1923 didn't survive WWII

    There was a Polish General named Juliuz Rommel, although if they were related it would only be distantly

    8th Air Force:
    fired 76.9 million rounds of .50 caliber
    fired .7 million rounds of .30 caliber
    downed 6090 enemy aircraft
    had an average of 1 enemy plane shot down for each 12,700 rounds fired (1/12,700)

    15th Air Force:
    fired 30 million rounds of .50 caliber
    downed 2110 enemy aircraft
    had an average of 1/14,200

    The Germans' average was 1/12,000

    Percentage Of All Allied Bombs Dropped Year %
    1940 .8%
    1941 2%
    1942 3%
    1943 12.8%
    1944 57.9%
    1945 23.5%



    12,000 heavy bombers were shot down in WWII
    Between 1939 and 1945 the Allies dropped 3.4 million tons of bombs
    That averages out to be 27,700 tons of bombs a month

    2/3 of Allied bomber crews were lost for each plane destroyed
    3 or 4 ground men were wounded for each killed
    6 bomber crewmen were killed for each one wounded
    Over 100,000 Allied bomber crewmen were killed over Europe
    Tour Of Duty % KIA or MIA
    Fighters (300 combat hours) 24%
    Medium bombers (50 missions 48%
    Heavy bombers (30 missions) 71%

    D-Day Statistics: Unit Allies Germans Ratio
    Ground Troops 1 million 700,000 1.43:1
    Replacements 120,000 20,000 6:1
    Other Men 1.75 million 780,000 2.25:1
    Total 2.87 million 1.5 million 1.92:1


    Unit Allies Germans Ratio
    Tanks 5500 1400 3.93:1
    Artillery 4800 3200 1.5:1
    Others 2000 800 2.5:1


    Air Force Bombers Fighters Total
    RAF 624 2172 2796
    USAAF 1922 1311 3233
    Luftwaffe 400 420 820
    Ratio 6.4:1 8.3:1 7.4:1


    The Canadians' contributions in WWII are often overlooked, yet they had the 4th largest air force and the 3rd largest navy, who helped protect Allied convoys in the Atlantic. They gave an added industrial output as well as 6 army divisions, of whom 45,000 gave their lives for the Allies.


    There were 433 Medals of Honor awarded during WWII, 219 of them were given after the receipiant's death

    From 6 June 1944 to 8 May 1945 in Europe the Allies had 200,000 dead and 550,000 wounded

    The US had the lowest casualty rates of the major powers in WWII
    The American Sub-Division Of Army Units In WWII:

    squad--around a dozen men
    platoon--3 or 4 squads
    company--3 or 4 platoons
    battalion--3 or 4 companies
    regiment--3 or 4 battalions
    division--3 or 4 regiments
    corps
    army
    army group
    US Infantry Regiment In 1944:
    6 105mm Howitzers, 9 57mm anti-tank guns, 55 .50 caliber machine guns, many .30 caliber machine guns and enough Jeeps & ammunition to opperate

    US Infantry Company In 1944:
    193 men, 15 BARs, 2 M1919A4s, 1 .50 caliber machine gun and 6 submachine guns

    US Infantry Platoon In 1944:
    41 men, 1 M2 carbine, 3 BARs

    US Airborne Infantry Company:
    176 men, 9 machine guns, 9 BARs, 3 60mm mortars and 3 bazookas

    US Airborne Infantry Platoon:
    36 men, 2 M1919A6s, 22 rifles, 14 M2 carbines, 1 60mm mortar, 1 sniper rifle and 1 bazooka


    1/3 of US Airborne troops landed by parachute, 2/3 by glider
    Percentage Of Combat Strength Kept In Non-Divisional Formations (regiment, battalion, etc.) Country %
    USA 45%
    USSR 20%
    Germany 10%


    Total Number Of Weapons During WWII Weapon Type World USA US %
    Aircraft 542,000 283,000 52%
    Vehicles 5.1 million 2.47 million 48%


    Convoy Battles Date Convoy Code Ships Sunk Tonnage German Subs Sunk
    October 1940 SC-71, HX-79 79 32 154,600 12 0
    September 1941 SC-42 70 18 73,200 19 2
    July 1942 PQ-17 42 16 102,300 11 0
    November 1942 SC-107 42 15 82,800 18 3
    December 1942 ONS-154 45 19 74,500 19 1
    March 1943 SC-121, HX-228 119 16 79,900 37 2



    800 U-Boats sank 2640 ships in the Atlantic
    Year Total Ships Sunk Sunk By Submarine
    1939 222 114
    1940 1059 471
    1941 1299 432
    1942 1664 1160
    1943 597 377
    1944 205 132
    1945 105 56



    40,000 men served on U-Boats during WWII; 30,000 never returned
    US Daily Ammunition Expenditure In TonsAction Armor divisions Infantry divisions 155mm battalions
    Attack 436-832 353-658 66-121
    Defense 596-969 472-768 86-142
    Pursuit 107 83 15
    Delay 321 256 51
     
  18. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    Currently sorting through all the models I have extracted out of all the mods and from the download pages. Should make the game a lot better looking using geniune models and skins as much as possible.
     
  19. fireclaw722

    fireclaw722 Imperial Guard

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    Great(it's going to be really fun to try to play on Open Play:D)!
     
  20. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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    I might disable open play in the scripts :p



    only kidding
     

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