Road to War - Historical

[fireclaw722]

I'd like to see a WWII mod for Civ5(even better would be a WWI mod, but I'm going to try to learn to mod just for that).

 

[kiwitt]

I am having a bit of a struggle working out how to add aircraft for minor nations. I have studied the performance characteristics of all aircraft produced and created a speadsheet to determine the Civ4 values. All looks good.

But I am coming to conclusion that it may be easy to give them basic fighters and bombers and then let their upgrades be major nation hand-me-downs. e.g. Bf109 becomes Hungarys improved fighter.

 

[fireclaw722]

The only thing that would draw me away from that would be that the Basic Fighters and Bombers cost alot to build and could be upgraded cheaply to their Improved counter-parts(Although in a 1939 scenario it wouldn't be much of a problem, as Improved Fighters are just a tech or two away).

 

[kiwitt]

I should have used better words , you can not upgrade from one to the other, just have the ability to build newer units. i.e. You can build 50 basic fighters, 50 improved fighters and about 10 Jet fighters. Which is your maximums for each unit class.

This seems more "historical". The built aircaft did not disappear, but were simply relegated to lesser roles. i.e. when I am playing Germany, I place the bf.109 on interception duties and move my fw190s to the frontline.

So in the case of the lesser nations they will still have the Basic fighters, and then they will have to build the improved fighters from scratch, i.e. no upgrade option.

 

[fireclaw722]

Thats true. I would have some the same, i.e:

• Nationalist Spain: Bf109, Imp. Fighter, Jet Fighter
• Vichy France: Fighter(I would pefer this over the French fighter, because the Vichy used German fighters, and they didn't surrender until 1940[which the Germans had FW190a's then]), FW190a, Me262

Another thing I might do is add in(or code) it where one could buy or sell naval, air, or tanks(this could allow the option of someone trying to help their future allies). You could check at RoM in the AND forum(Afforess did this with his 'Advanced Diplomacy' modmod). I know this part might end up better at the WWII 1939 mod, but it would make RTW better.

Not to try to bag or nothing, but as you[kiwitt] said:

I see this as a mod about the units, and war, not overall diplomacy

(or something along those lines).

 

[kiwitt]

I am considering adding the follwoing;

* Arabia (from UE)
* Persia (From UE)
* Govts-in-Exile

The last one is where e.g. Poland, Baltic, Low-countries, Norway/Denmark, etc. have isolated locations where they can continue in play albeit at very low resource levels. These will simply be 1 population towns with names like "Poland-in-Exile".

* Portugal to be assigned to Ireland

Another Neutral country closer to it and not Sweden like it currently is. This will reduce the power of Sweden

 

[kiwitt]

Change of Plan ... I will make Portugal a country in it's own right.

I have already successfully added "Switzerland" as a nation.

 

[FNP]

I am having a bit of a struggle working out how to add aircraft for minor nations. I have studied the performance characteristics of all aircraft produced and created a speadsheet to determine the Civ4 values. All looks good.

But I am coming to conclusion that it may be easy to give them basic fighters and bombers and then let their upgrades be major nation hand-me-downs. e.g. Bf109 becomes Hungarys improved fighter.

.....................................
Good idea. Most "second hand" material found its way into the hands of allies. If you want a review of your spreadsheet I'll be happy to look it over.

FNP

 

[FNP]

Most countries that were "neutral" stayed that way because there was no economic or strategic value in having them as allies and there was no reason to dedicate valuable forces required to occupy them.

 

[kiwitt]

The reason I am adding additional nations is that during World War Two some nations did play a role. e.g. in 1941 there was the Anglo-Soviet invasion of Persia.

I am adding Arabia to give some threat to the British in Iraq.

Good idea. Most "second hand" material found its way into the hands of allies. If you want a review of your spreadsheet I'll be happy to look it over.

FNP

Here is the spreadsheet. It is still a work in progress as I am currently diverted to adding some more nations.

Tab 1 is the raw performance data for individual stats.
Tab 2 is list of aircraft some nations had
Tab 3 is the list of aircraft I will be assigning - work in progress.

 

[kiwitt]

I am also considering adding Elite Units as a using the Marine and Airborne Classes

1) British Commandos, which will have huge bonuses versus siege weapons and try to make them invisible of unknown nationality (Small in Size but a lethal punch)
2) US Rangers and Airborne Troops (Highly mobile)
3) German SS and PG Divisions (Always had the latest equipment)
4) Italian Blackshirts (albeit poor combat)
5) Russian "Guards" units (however many were in name only and were similar to other regular units

So much to research ....

Still with Civ 5 coming out and being like a real "wargame" - no more stacks of doom or city combat, this reasearch will not be for naught.

 

[kiwitt]

Just testing the file sizes for Road to War - Historical.

* Without Movies it is 70 MB
* With Movies it is 283 MB

 

[kiwitt]

Aiming for April release date.

 

[kiwitt]

If you want a review of your spreadsheet I'll be happy to look it over.

FNP

FNP's Review

I have made a few changes where I found radius instead of range fuel figures and a couple on bomb loads that reflect operational loads vice maximum ramp gross weight loads. Reduced B-17G to 3600 kg. Probably should reduce the Lancaster bomb loads but I cannot find any authoritative figures on bomb loads vs fuel loads.

Some of the fighter ranges were for internal fuel only and others reflected maximum ferry range with external fuel tanks. I have tried to “normalize” ranges for all fighters by using range figures that reflect the use of centerline drop tanks. For the Mosquito I also used drop tank range figures.

Suggest use of following changes to fighters / Mosquito.

- Added Spitfire Mk IX. That type is the counterpart to the German FW-190A8.
- Added the FW-190A8. The FW-190D was a very late 1944 modification in small numbers. Both additions better represent the types being produced and flown in numbers.
- Added Mosquito FB VI. It represents over 1/3 of the total production.
- Added Gloster Mk III. It was the true operational jet in late 1945. The Mk I was only produced/ deployed in a single squadron before being rapidly replaced by the Mk III due to rapid engine improvement / development.

USAAF P-80 was the operational jet fighter. Only 60 P-59’s were produced.

Thanks for this. I'll Incorporate the changes into my calculations.

One of the reasons I used maximum range in my range calculations was, that was all that was available in the data. So I made an estimate that the combat range would be slightly less than half the maximum range.

 

[FNP]

FNP's Review Thanks for this. I'll Incorporate the changes into my calculations.

One of the reasons I used maximum range in my range calculations was, that was all that was available in the data. So I made an estimate that the combat range would be slightly less than half the maximum range.

Completely agree with your combat radius estimate. Given the great discrepancies in performance figures, getting exact numbers is really tough. Great job on all the research.

FNP

 

[kiwitt]

Great job on all the research.

Thanks for that.

I am kind of lucky that WWII is my interest as well. While researching one piece of data I am easily distracted by further related links and am learning new info every day. The website you supplied is going to be some good reading too! Especially the Pilot Reports

My goal is to make "The Road to War - Historical" as accurate as possible, given the limitations of the Civ4 / RtW codebase.

 

[kiwitt]

Something to consider

Spoiler :

It is impressive I wonder whst the total unit strength of all allied tank divisions.

Did find this lot, though I cannot guarentee their source

WWII Death Count Per Country:
Country Military Civilian Total
USSR 12 million 17 million 29 million
Poland 597,000 5.86 million 6.27 million
Germany 3.25 million 2.44 million 5.69 million
Yugoslavia 305,000 1.35 million 1.66 million
Romania 450,000 465,000 915,000
Hungary 200,000 600,000 800,000
France 245,000 350,000 595,000
Italy 380,000 153,000 533,000
Great Britain 403,000 92,700 495,000
United States 407,000 6,000 413,000
Czechoslovakia 7,000 315,000 322,000
Holland 13,700 236,000 249,000
Greece 19,000 140,000 159,000
Belgium 76,000 23,000 99,000


Death Distribution Of Both World Wars War Military Dead Civilian Dead
WWI 95% 5%
WWII 33% 67%


Number of divisions available for these countries over the course of the war:

Country 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 End of War
France 86 105 0 0 5 7 14 14
Germany* 78 189 235 261 327 347 319 375
Great Britain 9 34 35 38 39 37 31 31
Italy 6 73 64 89 86 2 9 10
Poland 43 2 2 2 2 5 5 5
Romania 11 28 33 31 33 32 24 24
USSR 194 200 220 250 350 400 488 491
USA** 8 24 39 76 95 94 94 94
*towards the end of the war, many of these divisions were either incomplete or poorly equipped
**including both Army and Marine divisions and accounting for the Pacific theater

Aircraft Available In Europe
Date British US Soviet TOTAL German Allied Ratio
June 1942 9500 0 2100 11,600 3700 3.1:1
December 1942 11,300 1300 3800 16,400 3400 4.8:1
June 1943 12,700 5000 5600 23,300 4600 5.1:1
December 1943 11,800 7500 8800 28,100 4700 6:1
June 1944 13,200 11,800 14,700 39,700 4600 8.6:1
December 1944 14,500 12,200 15,800 42,500 8500 5:1


Aircraft Sorties In WWII Campaign
Allied Axis Allied Kills Per 1000 Axis Kills Per 1000 Allied Lost Per 1000 Axis Lost Per 1000
France 1940 4480 21,000 28.6 12.5 58.5 6.1
Britain 1940 31,000 42,000 21.8 29.5 29.5 9.6
Pre D-Day 1944 98,400 34,500 12.7 29.3 10.3 36.1
Post D-Day 1944 203,357 31,833 17.3 16.2 2.5 110.6


Major Warships Sunk In WWII
Country Aircraft Carriers Battleships Cruisers Destroyers Submarines Total
Germany 0 4 9 53 994 1060
Britain 9 5 29 142 75 260
Italy 0 2 15 99 116 232
USA* 11 2 10 82 52 157
France 0 5 10 58 65 138
USSR 0 0 2 34 95 131
Holland 0 0 3 11 15 29
Poland 0 0 1 4 2 9

*includes figures from the Pacific War

Civilian Air Raid Deaths Country Deaths
Germany 543,000
Britain 60,400



According to the law of averages, every rifleman from each division would be killed within a year or two
Overall, there was a 50% chance of a WWII infantryman being killed or wounded
German/American Rank Conversion Chart Waffen SS Wehrmacht US Army
Schütze Schütze/Grenadier Private
Oberschütze Oberschütze/Obergrenadier Private First Class
Sturmann Gefreiter --
Rottenführer Obergefreiter Corporal
Unterscharführer Unteroffizier Sergeant
Scharführer Unterfeldwebel Staff Sergeant
Standartenjunker Fähnrich --
Oberscharführer Feldwebel Technical Sergeant
Hauptscharführer Oberfeldwebel Master Sergeant
Standarten-Oberjunker Oberfähnrich --
Sturmscharführer Stabsfeldwebel Sergeant Major
Untersturmführer Leutnant Second Lieutenant
Obersturmführer Oberleutnant First Lieutenant
Hauptsturmführer Hauptmann Captain
Sturmbannführer Major Major
Obersturmbannführer Oberstleutnant Lieutenant Colonel
Standartenführer Oberst Colonel
Oberführer -- --
Brigadeführer Generalmajor Brigadier General
Gruppenführer Generalleutnant Major General
Obergruppenführer General der... (Infanterie, etc.) Lieutenant General
Oberstgruppenführer Generaloberst General
Reichsführer Generalfeldmarschall General of the Army


German Occupational Forces, 1939-1940 Country Population Area In Sq. Mi.
German Forces German Ratio To Population
Balkans 21 million 403,000 200,000 1:105
Belgium 8 million 30,400 100,000 1:80
Denmark 3.6 million 22,700 40,000 1:90
France 40 million 550,700 500,000 1:80
Holland 8.5 million 34,200 100,000 1:85
Norway 2.8 million 324,000 150,000 1:19


Location Of German Divisions In June Of Each Year
Country 1941 1942 1943 1944
USSR 34 171 179 157
France, Belgium & Holland 38 27 42 56
Norway & Finland 13 16 16 16
Balkans 7 8 17 20
Italy 0 0 0 22
Denmark 1 1 2 3
North Africa 2 3 0 0


A look at fuel consumption of German tanks:
Year Types Of Tanks In A Division Tons Of Fuel Consumed Per 100 Miles
1941 PzII, PzIII, PzIV, Pz38 22.1
1942 PzIII, PzIV 23.7
1943 PzIII, PzIV, Panther, Tiger 31.7
1944 PzIV, Panther, Tiger 35.8


Luftwaffe Aircraft Used Only Against Allied Bombers
Month Year Percentage
June 1940 0%
June 1941 7%
June 1942 17%
June 1943 21%
June 1944 29%
January 1945 50%



Germany got 45% of its oil supplies from Romania, which was captured by the Soviets in August 1944
In spite of fuel shortages, German tank production doubled in 1943 and went up another 50% in 1944
Oil Production In Tons Year Germany USA
1939 8 million N/A
1940 6.7 million N/A
1941 7.3 million N/A
1942 7.7 million 184 million
1943 8.9 million 200 million
1944 6.4 million 223 million

Percentage Of German Forces On The Eastern Front Each Year
Unit 1941 1942 1943 1944
Divisions 67% 75% 60% 57%
Troops 84% 74% 72% 40%
Aircraft 64% 65% 42% 45%



By D-Day the Germans had 1.5 million railway workers operating 988,000 freight cars and used 29,000 per day
Germany's casualty statistics:


By D-Day, 35% of all German soldiers had been wounded at least once,
11% twice, 6% three times, 2% four times and 2% more than 4 times
The average officer slot had to be refilled 9.2 times
Germany lost 136 Generals, which averages out to be 1 dead General every 2 weeks
Germany lost 110 Division Commanders in combat
Air attacks caused 1/3 of German Generals' deaths
84 German Generals were executed by Hitler

Germany lost 40-45% of their aircraft to accidents
U-Boat Losses Sunk By 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944 1945 Total
Aircraft Carrier 0 2 3 36 140 68 40 289
Ships 5 11 24 32 59 68 17 216
Bombs 0 0 0 0 2 24 36 62
Mines 3 2 0 3 1 9 7 25
Submarines 1 2 1 2 4 5 3 18
Other 0 4 5 6 17 43 17 92
Total 9 23 35 86 236 235 122 746



By late 1944, the Waffen SS accounted for 10% of the German military and 25% of the German armor
German bullets had less flash and smoke than American bullets so it was harder to see where the Germans were firing from
German Flak Unit 1939 1940 1941 1942 1943 1944
Heavy Guns 2600 3164 3888 4772 8520 10,600

Light Guns 6700 8290 9020 10,700 17,500 19,360

Searchlights 2988 3450 3905 4650 5200 7500

% Under The Luftwaffe 50% 61% 54% 64% 74% 70%



Mid-Year Manpower On The Eastern Front Year Soviet German
1941 5 million 3.3 million
1942 5 million 3.1 million
1943 6.2 million 2.9 million
1944 6.8 million 3.1 million



80% of Soviet males born in 1923 didn't survive WWII

There was a Polish General named Juliuz Rommel, although if they were related it would only be distantly

8th Air Force:
fired 76.9 million rounds of .50 caliber
fired .7 million rounds of .30 caliber
downed 6090 enemy aircraft
had an average of 1 enemy plane shot down for each 12,700 rounds fired (1/12,700)

15th Air Force:
fired 30 million rounds of .50 caliber
downed 2110 enemy aircraft
had an average of 1/14,200

The Germans' average was 1/12,000

Percentage Of All Allied Bombs Dropped Year %
1940 .8%
1941 2%
1942 3%
1943 12.8%
1944 57.9%
1945 23.5%



12,000 heavy bombers were shot down in WWII
Between 1939 and 1945 the Allies dropped 3.4 million tons of bombs
That averages out to be 27,700 tons of bombs a month

2/3 of Allied bomber crews were lost for each plane destroyed
3 or 4 ground men were wounded for each killed
6 bomber crewmen were killed for each one wounded
Over 100,000 Allied bomber crewmen were killed over Europe
Tour Of Duty % KIA or MIA
Fighters (300 combat hours) 24%
Medium bombers (50 missions 48%
Heavy bombers (30 missions) 71%

D-Day Statistics: Unit Allies Germans Ratio
Ground Troops 1 million 700,000 1.43:1
Replacements 120,000 20,000 6:1
Other Men 1.75 million 780,000 2.25:1
Total 2.87 million 1.5 million 1.92:1


Unit Allies Germans Ratio
Tanks 5500 1400 3.93:1
Artillery 4800 3200 1.5:1
Others 2000 800 2.5:1


Air Force Bombers Fighters Total
RAF 624 2172 2796
USAAF 1922 1311 3233
Luftwaffe 400 420 820
Ratio 6.4:1 8.3:1 7.4:1


The Canadians' contributions in WWII are often overlooked, yet they had the 4th largest air force and the 3rd largest navy, who helped protect Allied convoys in the Atlantic. They gave an added industrial output as well as 6 army divisions, of whom 45,000 gave their lives for the Allies.


There were 433 Medals of Honor awarded during WWII, 219 of them were given after the receipiant's death

From 6 June 1944 to 8 May 1945 in Europe the Allies had 200,000 dead and 550,000 wounded

The US had the lowest casualty rates of the major powers in WWII
The American Sub-Division Of Army Units In WWII:

squad--around a dozen men
platoon--3 or 4 squads
company--3 or 4 platoons
battalion--3 or 4 companies
regiment--3 or 4 battalions
division--3 or 4 regiments
corps
army
army group
US Infantry Regiment In 1944:
6 105mm Howitzers, 9 57mm anti-tank guns, 55 .50 caliber machine guns, many .30 caliber machine guns and enough Jeeps & ammunition to opperate

US Infantry Company In 1944:
193 men, 15 BARs, 2 M1919A4s, 1 .50 caliber machine gun and 6 submachine guns

US Infantry Platoon In 1944:
41 men, 1 M2 carbine, 3 BARs

US Airborne Infantry Company:
176 men, 9 machine guns, 9 BARs, 3 60mm mortars and 3 bazookas

US Airborne Infantry Platoon:
36 men, 2 M1919A6s, 22 rifles, 14 M2 carbines, 1 60mm mortar, 1 sniper rifle and 1 bazooka


1/3 of US Airborne troops landed by parachute, 2/3 by glider
Percentage Of Combat Strength Kept In Non-Divisional Formations (regiment, battalion, etc.) Country %
USA 45%
USSR 20%
Germany 10%


Total Number Of Weapons During WWII Weapon Type World USA US %
Aircraft 542,000 283,000 52%
Vehicles 5.1 million 2.47 million 48%


Convoy Battles Date Convoy Code Ships Sunk Tonnage German Subs Sunk
October 1940 SC-71, HX-79 79 32 154,600 12 0
September 1941 SC-42 70 18 73,200 19 2
July 1942 PQ-17 42 16 102,300 11 0
November 1942 SC-107 42 15 82,800 18 3
December 1942 ONS-154 45 19 74,500 19 1
March 1943 SC-121, HX-228 119 16 79,900 37 2



800 U-Boats sank 2640 ships in the Atlantic
Year Total Ships Sunk Sunk By Submarine
1939 222 114
1940 1059 471
1941 1299 432
1942 1664 1160
1943 597 377
1944 205 132
1945 105 56



40,000 men served on U-Boats during WWII; 30,000 never returned
US Daily Ammunition Expenditure In TonsAction Armor divisions Infantry divisions 155mm battalions
Attack 436-832 353-658 66-121
Defense 596-969 472-768 86-142
Pursuit 107 83 15
Delay 321 256 51

 

[kiwitt]

Currently sorting through all the models I have extracted out of all the mods and from the download pages. Should make the game a lot better looking using geniune models and skins as much as possible.

 

[fireclaw722]

My goal is to make "The Road to War - Historical" as accurate as possible, given the limitations of the Civ4 / RtW codebase.

Great(it's going to be really fun to try to play on Open Play)!

 

[kiwitt]

Great(it's going to be really fun to try to play on Open Play)!

I might disable open play in the scripts



only kidding