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Roads

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Sven, Jul 15, 2019.

  1. Sven

    Sven Chieftain

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    I wanted to have a caravan move from a newly captured city in a hilly/jungle area to my capital, but the trader insisted on going over the ocean. This surprised me, since I wanted that road. Have they changed road building in GS or Rise and Fall (I just bought both expansions a few days ago)?

    Or is it because there was a harbour present in the city when I captured it (It was Phoenician)?
     
  2. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    The harbour will help with distance but it is the traversal time that causes it to go seaward.
    I tend to play with foreign trade routes and to get to the modern age with few internal roads is quite weird and wrong. There should be a natural road that appears over time. Sure its a muddy track but it is still a track.
     
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  3. Sven

    Sven Chieftain

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    I agree. Any empire would have an internal infrastructure. Weird, though, that this has never occured in any of my other games.
     
  4. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Because I play as Victoria a lot I see it a lot. Think about a concave coastline or a landmass that has lakes and mountains that cause additional tile costs. these are when the coast is chosen instead
    Equally WRT harbours... they add distance above the 15 default tiles so it may be you are out of range by land.
     
  5. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    Would be nice if you'd get to choose between land or sea in these situations. You need to unlock sea routes so the coding to seperate between the two is there.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
    Thibaulthc and Ondolindë like this.
  6. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    This is a pet peeve of mine. I hate with a vengeance that you can't pick the pathing of your trade routes. I constantly see all kinds of weird nonsense roads going around cities instead of through them, or going over ocean and refusing to connect cities by land.
     
  7. qadams

    qadams Bohemian

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    It would really be nice to have an option for a short-term "trade route" between cities of your choice, with the route concluding as soon as the new road is finished. It would be fine with me if there was no gold or other benefit from that route, simply to get a road built.
     
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  8. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Given that the game already has coding for Trading Posts in cities and differentiating between 'Sea' and 'Land' Trade Routes, I wouldn't think it would be beyond possibilities to simply allow you to place Trading Posts in a set of cities, perhaps using Envoys or a Great Merchant to keep it from being over-used, and then have the game specify that any Trader going from A to E will also stop at the Trading Posts in B and C along the way. That would allow both the building of a Trade Network and the specifying (with effort) of the route to be used.
    Right now, I either seem to have no route between some cities or a web of routes going past certain cities by 1 or 2 tiles on their way to more distant foreign or domestic destinations. Not quite as bad as previous Civ games' spaghetti of roads/railroads, but still frustrating.
     
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  9. Sven

    Sven Chieftain

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    We'll have to play as Rome to get it like we want.
     
  10. Nigel_Tufnel2

    Nigel_Tufnel2 King

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    Lately I get roads built that will follow clear terrain much more than used to be normal. So rather than the direct route that is expected, there are weird turns "for no reason".

    I have begun delaying the naval trade route tech to make sure I get at least one decent road back to my capital. Often it is from my first expo, and often both cities are on the coast. If I don't get that first decent road I stay moderately annoyed the entire game.
     
    Victoria likes this.
  11. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Here's a classic example that was just driving me crazy. There was no way I could get road coverage on the tile south-west of Portsmouth until Military Engineers came along.

    Spoiler :
    upload_2019-7-16_8-28-10.png
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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  13. Abaxial

    Abaxial Prince

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    It annoys me as well! Especially when a sea route may be plundered by wandering barbarian ships while the land route is safe.
     
  14. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    yes, you get more gold but to have a choice would be more than beneficial, I feel it is unanimously wished for. Any dissenters?
     
  15. Jaybe

    Jaybe civus fanaticus Supporter

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    Sure, I’ll raise my hand.

    Caveat, I play as Rome and at Prince, so I don’t have the issues so much as others.
     
  16. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    Let me interject a comment or two based on the historical Trade Routes (Historical Argument from Boris - Who would have imagined!).
    First, trade went by water whenever possible. The amount and the speed with which goods could be carried and the efficiency in manpower/tonnage was an order of magnitude greater even by Ancient ships than by ancient pack animals/wagons (wagon/cart = 1 - 2 tons, Minoan ship circa 1500 BCE = 30 tons, distance per day 15 - 30 kilometers at best by land, 200 - 300 kilometers by sea, each cart = 1 man, 1 - 4 draft animals, each ship = 8 man crew, 1 ship's cat or carrier pigeon).

    So, in the game it makes perfect sense for any 'automatic' Trade Route to be traced by water wherever it can go that way without, say, increasing the length by more than 50% - it should still have a better return on investment than a land route.

    But, a government/civ/AI/player can always change the ROI calculations - increasing tax on ships and shipping, port taxes, 'free' caravansaries to encourage land routes, 'free' caravan guards to ensure the merchant gets to his destination - historically, there were lots of ways to 'move' trade routes where the government wanted them to go - within reason. It will cost you (ie, reduce the benefit from the trade route) more the more extremely you 'warp' the natural economics: getting merchants to take a pack train through territory teaming with acquisitive barbarians may require a major investment in infrastructure (fortified caravansaries or forts, military patrols) or Encouragement (no taxes on the merchants, reduced Gold or other returns on the route).

    So, Trade goes by sea whenever possible, but you can always change it to a land route, BUT if the land route is longer than the sea route (as in the example shown above) or, say, through really bad terrain (top of the list: desert, tundra, snow) you may have to take a reduction in the return from the route: lose 1 Gold/turn minimum, or even all of some return so that, essentially, you are paying for the merchants to build you a road.

    That gives you, the gamer, the historical profit/loss calculation and decision situations to decide for yourself, instead of having the game 'automate' the placing of roads and routes.
     
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  17. Sostratus

    Sostratus Emperor

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    It's easy to forget but we used to have separate land and sea routes by way of a distinction between trade caravans and trade ships, in civ5.
    These were condensed into a single hovering caravan unit in Beyond Earth: Rising Tide. Now that we have a trade system that allows trading posts and effectively unlimited range with a developed trade network, it doesn't really make sense to have a "trade ship."

    Although what it really highlights is the lack of practical road building that military engineers bring to the table. And it's not the most simple solution - if MEs didn't need charges to build roads, then one ME could build your whole road network and it would remove that function from traders. If you had some type of classical/medieval civil engineer unit that only built roads/rails and had like, 6 charges, then you could balance things somewhat.
     
  18. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    The problem is, there wasn't a lot of 'official' road building before the Industrial Era historically. The Roman Legions built roads, and the Gallic Celts appear to have built some good roads in what is now France (the Romans took over the routes after their conquest, so everyone thinks the originals were Roman), the Persian Empire had one "Royal Road", but it was strictly for messengers - an Imperial "Pony Express", rather than for trade. Incas had foot/pack animal paths of some sophistication and complexity. I'm sure people more familiar than I with African and Southeast Asian Civs could come up with more examples from those areas, but it's still a minority of the Civs/cultures/polities in the game.
    So, the Ancient/Classical/Medieval 'roads' all being 'built' by traders is not far off the mark as an accurate depiction of the Historical Problem for the gamer. The problem is, IMHO, that the gamer has no recourse at all except Traders to build roads, and as the examples above show, that just weren't so. We shouldn't all have to play certain Civs to build a road!
    IF you are willing to invest the resources, you should be able to build roads. But it shouldn't be easy, at least until Industrial techniques like asphalt tarmac or the MacAdam system are available in the late Industrial Era.

    Here's a possibility: a Builder OR Military Engineer can build a road for 1/2 a Charge per tile over 'clear' tiles - plains, grassland, plains hills, grassland hills. Over 'difficult' terrain/tiles (everything else!) it costs 1 Charge/tile.
    Note that a Builder with 1/2 Charge left cannot build anything else, only Repair a tile, so there's an extra 'hidden' cost to this.

    So, building a Royal Road from one end of the Empire to the other will be extremely costly, but it can be done.

    Once you reach the Industrial Era, Industrial Roads can be built by Builders or Military Engineers without using Charges, but each tile built costs 1 Gold on 'clear' tiles, 2 Gold on 'difficult' tiles as above. steam-powered industrial machinery and techniques make it a lot less expensive in manpower, but more expensive in direct Costs in gold and production capacity. Just to keep the gamers honest, the cost might go up by +1 Gold per tile each in the Modern, Atomic, and Information Eras - a multi-lane superhighway like the German Autobahn or US Interstate can cost over a billion dollars per mile to build!

    (Note that the 1/2 Charge per road tile approximates @Sostratus 6-charge road builder: I trust that he's got the relative numbers right if anyone does!)
     
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  19. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    You may be pedantically correct Boris however there was always land traffic between cities that created tracks which became roads which troops could use to speed up journeys.
    The reason we want a land route is there is no sane way we can get a road otherwise.

    So no, it does not make perfect sense in a game where no roads are naturally created.
     
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  20. Clan

    Clan Chieftain

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    Surely the simplest (best?) solution is to allow builders to, you know, build roads.
     

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