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Rock or Marble?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Soundwαvє ▼, Feb 1, 2010.

  1. Orzio

    Orzio Prince

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    Marble wonders however are often wonders that the AI dont really go after or atleast the teaches you need for them. You can almost allways be first to asthetic litature and music if you want to and easy get the really good wonders there without marble. While THG mids GW and stonedge are early wonders with more competion and building them without stonre will hurt expantion allot.
     
  2. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    Good point, Orzio. Depends on the map / game, though. I think just about any discussion on the CIV boards can be answered that way.
     
  3. Abegweit

    Abegweit Anarchist trader

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    I'm surprised at how little discussion is given to national wonders here. Sure I like the 'mids and the GL and the rest of them but Stone wins simply because of Moai and Oxford. The latter is, hands down, the best wonder in the game. Both are often built in a low-production city, possession of stone can be a game-breaker. While the HE is mighty important too, it costs less and is normally built in a city with plenty of production anyway.
     
  4. Ecori

    Ecori Immortal

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    First of all I consider it a fail if I have to fight wars on my soil. You should always know if an DoW is incoming and the most likely place the AI will attack. This mean that you only need 1wall/castle in your entire empire. Walls are allready so cheap that I would just whip one if I needed it. Stone might save 1 pop...

    Why would I ever want to add to my power graph? It's just a complete wast of hammers - better build wealth if I have the spare hammers. For your power rating to have ANY influence on wether an AI will attack you or not you need to be extremely more powerful than them, which in the early/mid game is not likely walls or not.

    Concerning Nationals I agree that stone have a slight edge, though marble does speed up National Epic which can be a :):):):):) to build sometimes.
     
  5. Nilmerf

    Nilmerf Warlord

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    For the non-Industrious leader, I say marble is a lot better. The major stone wonders come super-early, which is time better spent building workers/settlers and units. For Industrious, stone is a better option.. it gives you a chance to build some of those early wonders at a discount, and you can just build the later marble wonders fairly easily anyway depending on tech path. Of course there are some exceptions; Spain and Charismatic leaders value stone a bit higher.
     
  6. Agramon

    Agramon Warlord

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    Concerning National Wonders I'd favour marble. HE is a must the earlier you get it the better. Specialization is your best weapon. I find the HE to save the most hammers, since you need so many troops all game long. I usually build Oxford in a bureaucracy powered Capital with a mix of hammers and commerce, so production is mostly not an issue. National Epic instead is always a big issue after building the GLib. Especially if you chopped a lot for the Glib.

    The Hanging Gardens I find very useful in WE/SSE where they greatly boost your accompanying cities, that almost always have very low pop. And your cap benefits from health and you get GEPoints on top ;-)
     
  7. ABigCivFan

    ABigCivFan Emperor

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    I ran this poll 2 years ago, stone won almost at 2:1 ratio.

    I still vote for Marble simply because the typical wonders I build in my games are mostly marble enhanced: Glib, Parth, Oracle, Sistine, HE, NE, Taj, Hermitage, and some cathedrals. Most of these are early wonders that give significant advantage to human players.

    The only stone wonder I need is Oxford, and most of the time i build it in my burea capital which typically has good production.

    Here is a link to the old poll:

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=261027
     
  8. Bostock

    Bostock King

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    That's part of mean what I mean when I say it would be better if it came a little later when you would have more cities on average.
     
  9. DigitalBoy

    DigitalBoy Emperor

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    I agree. Stone is almost crucial in getting Moai Statues and Oxford University built in a timely manner. Building West Point without access to stone is pretty excruciating too, especially when it's diverting hammers away from your HE city. Off the top of my head, the only national wonder I can think of that marble makes a big difference for is National Epic, and that can often be built expediently without marble if there are enough mines in the fat cross.

    That being said, a lot of my favorite world wonders get a production bonus from marble, especially the otherwise extremely expensive Taj Mahal.
     
  10. UWHabs

    UWHabs Deity

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    If in my cap's BFC, then stone all the way. Gives me a chance at pyramids/gw if the map warrants it, which are huge.

    However, otherwise, I tend to think marble is a bit better. Getting the Great Library can be huge, and at that point, I can usually spare a city to make a try. Without marble, it can really take a long time, and I'll often lose it (or not even bother since I'd rather spend those hammers on the 1000 other things I need to get at that point in the game.

    Really, if I happen upon stone somewhere outside my cap, it's nice, but really not all that essential. It's good that it helps a few things but not enough to go crazy about. Finding marble nearby gives a nice boost if I can afford to go the calendar/aesthetics/lit/nationalism line, making that line very valuable.
     
  11. erikthecelt

    erikthecelt Old, Geezer, Unoriginal

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    Stone boosts Oxford, Creative/Ind (Louis) can be a fun game. Cheap/fast universities and Oxford can benefit any economy.
     
  12. mercury529

    mercury529 Warlord

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    I'll fall into the Emperor and below sometimes Stone camp. On Immortal and Deity, it is marble without a doubt. On Emperor and below, you have a reasonable chance of getting the Mids without horribly crippling expansion if you have access to Stone. The Mids are a game changing wonder in those circumstances. On Immortal and Deity, there is virtually no way to get the Mids without crippling expansion. The only wonders you can realistically incorporate into your plans on Immortal/Deity are ones you get first crack at (GLib, Parth, Sistine, Taj) or easy chops (Oracle, GLH).

    Another factor that is ignored is fail gold. For me, the most common tech path I take includes Marble wonders. That means if I want failure gold to power my economy, Marble is the way to go. It also helps that the timing of the Marble wonders is better for me than the Stone wonders (Mids excluded) where fail gold is concerned.
     
  13. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    I guess you're not privy to the old DoW, wait on your soil, kill the bastards in the open field (maybe collect extra GG points with the GW) and then begin disassembling the enemy empire.
    EP are sparse early in the game and I don't have the inclination to devote precious :commerce: to EP. Generally speaking, the AI has better EP on me in the early game. After alphabet, I may devote :hammers: to a spy or 2 to check out the enemy situation, but mostly, they remain in my land for counterespionage. There's way too much for my :hammers: to be doing to produce spies in early game. While I might know who's DoW, it isn't usual to know where they will hit.

    Also, if you've never been caught off guard in CIV before, I question your honesty.

    And I was responding in general to someone's post about Walls/Castles being useless, I really wasn't making comparisons to Stone. Although, I must say that saving population for more whipping and getting overflow :gold: is kinda nice.

    You can't build wealth b4 Currency and I'm likely to have any necessary walls up already at that point (unless emergency defense for a DoW)
    If ur power graph is pathetic, you better count on multiple DoW. Never mind trying to deter 1 war, I plan on someone DoW. But I don't want to deal with dog piling which experience has provided they will do in many circumstances. A 1 pop whip walls to keep ur power near par with the rest is good enough. Also, no unit support costs involved.
     
  14. oranje willem

    oranje willem Prince

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    Universities are cheaper for philosophical leaders and there is no Phi/Ind leader :) (I still wonder how god damn powerfull that would be).
     
  15. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    Well, CRE boosts :hammers: to Libraries, which are required to build Universities, so maybe that's what he means?
     
  16. Rittmeyer

    Rittmeyer Prince

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    What matters is how well you use them... if you build pyramids, kremlin and an early oxford, it's hard to say stone is not better. But if you get great library, fast epics and maybe sistine/versailles, marble will also be serving you so well...
     
  17. EsaKo

    EsaKo Prince

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    Marble rocks (no pun intended) for many SE-suitable wonders - both epics, Great Library, Parthie and Mausso (if you're really going to "waste" your Great People for golden ages :lol:). Stone has slightly more universally good uses like Oxford (no pun intended this time either) and West Point (should you ever get a level 6 unit) and Moai if you like that stuff... also, Mids are bloody expensive even with stone. But they're well worth it even without stone.
     
  18. Ecori

    Ecori Immortal

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    @ Blitz: I always try to avoid wars until I get gunpowder and can just run over my enemies. If I get a DoW and the fight is on my side of the border I do consider it a fail.

    I can always tell who are likely to consider me a target. Therefore I consentrate my troops in their direction. The AI will target one city for their SoD and usually it is not very difficult to guess which -> I might need 1 wall.

    I don't think you understand the way DoW and power rating works. On the higher dificulties it is almost impossible to avoid a DoW by having a huge power rating. A low power rating will not make you more likely to be attacked. Either you are a target or you are not. Weak targets doesn't get attacked more often than a stronger target who is still below the required power rating for preventing attacks. Diplo is what matters. If your diplo is pathetic you better count on multiple DoW.

    I cannot build walls before I have masonry which often comes alot later than currency unless I have marble or a Stone I would like to work.

    I don't use EP much except for revolting cities before my Curi/Cavalries attack so I can live without the EP bonus from castles.
     
  19. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    Yes I do understand how they work. And if you get DoW by an enemy you expect, the ability for a backstab becomes more realistic as the AI figures in your diplomatic situation. I don't trust any Civs at "cautious" even in the ancient/classical eras. I've gotten dogpiled that early before and it only happened when I had ignored my power rating, letting it slip down to 0.3 thinking that my Pleased relations with the leaders would stop a war. It didn't.

    I tend to have Masonry well before Currency especially if I'm gunning for 'Mids or GW (more often GW than 'Mids). Also, I've gained masonry as a bonus tech in a trade I make for either Aesthetics or Alphabet with a planned ally. It's rare that Masonry comes "alot later than currency" in my games.

    I'm not partial to castles either. But they do have sparse uses.
     
  20. Rittmeyer

    Rittmeyer Prince

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    Stone means you will lessen the harm that building the mids could do to your expansion plans. That's why I think it's so important here. I still think mids are really really powerfull, although that doesn't mean I actively look for it every game. In fact, if I have no stone, I will only build it if it somehow falls on my lap (lots of trees, great production city, AI's are slow in building wonders an so on).
     

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