Rockband or Entertainer for Civ7?

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

What should be the name of Cultural Warfare unit in Civ7? (or its late expansions, where Rockband usually emerges)
1. Rockband
2. Entertainer
The latter covers everything and everyone on stage and does a multinational concert tour ('Worldtour' as each respective entertainer usually advertise one), and this includes someone like Elvis Prestley as well as 'Cool Culture' like The Rat Pack (Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin (Features prominently in 2K Game 'Mafia II') and others who are 'Italian Americans' (And so often honored American Mafias for their career entry), J-Pop Anisong legend like Mizuki Ichiro, Sasaki Isao (Who began his career as Elvis impersonator and his early albums are japonizations of Elvis ones, even his preferred performance garments are heavily based on Elvis one) , or someones like Madonna, Mariah Carey, Michael Jackson, Prince, Kylie Minogue, and even more . While the former limits to a genre of musical entertainers that began in 50s

Personally I prefer Entertainer over Rockband. But I don't understand why F'xis is affixed to Rockband so much? Is Sid Meier Elvis fan or did 'The Great Atlantic Wars' between British and American entertainment industry began with British Rockband (or more correcctly 'pop band' think of The Beatles)? Who came first I can't actually recall? between The Beatles, or Elvis Prestley?

 

[Zaarin]

I'd just prefer they not return.

Who came first I can't actually recall?

Elvis. By about 20 years.

 

[Evie]

I think entertainers could have a place but it would be in a completely revamped victory condition and with a different function than spreading tourism.

Their current form does not work.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'd like the idea of an entertainer if wasn't exclusive to just performing music concerts. I think that could go back to Great Musicians.

I'd make entertainers more related to the happiness/amenity system than culture.

 

[9gkj548hkm20vk79dj689bnj4]

just make it a great artist again.

the developers had no idea what they were doing when they made rock bands that you had to purchase with faith...

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I'd like the idea of an entertainer if wasn't exclusive to just performing music concerts. I think that could go back to Great Musicians.

I'd make entertainers more related to the happiness/amenity system than culture.

Great Entertainer as part of an amenity/happiness/cultural icon system would actually make sense. Unlike the current Rock Band from Faith to produce Tourism. Don't know about anybody else, but I have never in my life so much as crossed a State Line, let alone a national border, to hear a Rock Band. Or any other kind of band. Or to buy a bandaid. Just saying . . .

And Great Entertainers would be useful or impactful for much, much more of a game than just the 1950 CE and later Bands With Rocks. You could push them back to Classical times, depending on how you were willing to define "entertainer" - Thespis, Salome, - gotta include the Roman actresses like Eucharis or Fabia Arete who played serious stage roles and had their own 'guild' (the Sociae Mimae), the first modern actress known: Lucrezia Di Siena (late 16th century CE), and the 18th - 19th centuries' David Garrick, 'touring entertainers' like Oscar Wilde and Samuel Clemens and, of course, the host of film actors and musicians/singers of the 20th century.
One could also include more 'corporate' entertainers: P. T. Barnum, Buffalo Bill, D'Oily Carte the producer, Walt Disney the cartoonist/movie maker/Theme Park inventor. I believe there are lists of winning charioteers from the Byzantine Hippodromes, so there is a wide range of Entertainers to choose from . . .

 

[Evie]

I mean, you may not, but people do go on quasi-religious pilgrimage to Grace,and or to visit Beatles "holy" sites (Abbey Road comes to mind). So there's that,

I get what they had in mind with "faith" - an expanded conception to include other kind of devoted fervor, as fans (and ecologists) are well known for today - and it would have made some sense, if the extremely rigid resource production system didn't irrevocably link faith almost exclusively to religious buildings.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

if the extremely rigid resource production system didn't irrevocably link faith almost exclusively to religious buildings.

Faith comes exclusively from religious infrastructure but is used for almost everything else

I personally appreciate the flexibility it offers in gameplay, but it's conceptually flawed.

As for OP's question, I think I would prefer Entertainers to Rock Bands just to make Culture (Tourism) Victory less oddly specific. The two big Tourism units in Civ VI are Rock Bands and Naturalists for building National Parks, which is... not particularly realistic to say the least. They're satisfying from a gameplay perspective, but they should hardly be the only options.

I'd like a greater emphasis on Wonders for Tourism. Few people are going to visit Paris and skip out on The-Tower-More-Famous-Than-Gustave-Eiffel That and some of the things that make Tourism so big irl: airports, hotels, dedicated tourism districts, theme parks, and tours.

 

[Zaarin]

I'd like a greater emphasis on Wonders for Tourism.

100% this. I...don't love Tourism as the basis for Culture Victory, at least not as Civ6 has it, but either way I think Wonders should be a cornerstone of the Culture Victory.

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

And 'Entertainers' purchased only by faith.. eh? Only known entertainers to do so is Gospel Band genres. OR it only holds true to several Christian churches where songbirs emerged from youth chiors. particularly Black entertainers who did 'Soul' musics.
The other 'twisted' example of this entertainer bought by Faith is Kitaro. he's buddhist (a serious one), and his great works are often used in meditation courses.

 

[Evie]

Like I said, Lonecat, it's pretty clear that in the late game "faith" is social fervor and enthusiasm in general, not limited to religious faith. The list of units purchased with faith make that clear. So talking about "but rock bands aren't religious!" Is really missing what the fame depicts. The devs do, in fact, know most rock bands aren't religious. They're not stupid (contrary to what an earlier poster upthread seems to think).

The problem being that with a very rigid resource generation system, they couldn't change what produces faith in the game, so it feels weird, but it's painfully clear that's what the devs were going for. That's a much more genersl problem (see also: "my theaters are researching political science").

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Like I said, Lonecat, it's pretty clear that in the late game "faith" is social fervor and enthusiasm in general, not limited to religious faith. The list of units purchased with faith make that clear. So talking about "but rock bands aren't religious!" Is really missing what the fame depicts. The devs do, in fact, know most rock bands aren't religious. They're not stupid (contrary to what an earlier poster upthread seems to think).

The problem being that with a very rigid resource generation system, they couldn't change what produces faith in the game, so it feels weird, but it's painfully clear that's what the devs were going for. That's a much more genersl problem (see also: "my theaters are researching political science").

Indeed, and another strong indication that the entire concept of "Currencies" in Civ VII needs to get a hard look, first at the Definition side (does the game need Gold and Production, Religion and/or Culture as accumulated, spendable points at all?) then at the input side (How is Gold, Religion, Production, etc to be generated?) and finally at the output side (what can you use Gold, Religion, Production for, and how?). Right now, much as I love being able to 'buy' Settlers, Workers, Military Units and Great Scientists with Religion/Faith generated by building Shrines and building the Pyramids with Production points generated from all my Iron Mines (although The Iron Pyramid does have a nice ring as a title for a Unique Wonder), it gets painful to keep putting my Common Sense on hold for most of the game . . .

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I get what they had in mind with "faith" - an expanded conception to include other kind of devoted fervor, as fans (and ecologists) are well known for today - and it would have made some sense, if the extremely rigid resource production system didn't irrevocably link faith almost exclusively to religious buildings.

The other problem is that it's not like culture is considered a "currency" that you can spend. It needs to progress and grow to learn civics. The only other reasonable option to use is buying them with gold but that also feels kind of boring.
At least strong culture civs, such as America, can benefit with the Preserve district for faith without needing to go for Holy Sites.

I'd like a greater emphasis on Wonders for Tourism. Few people are going to visit Paris and skip out on The-Tower-More-Famous-Than-Gustave-Eiffel That and some of the things that make Tourism so big irl: airports, hotels, dedicated tourism districts, theme parks, and tours.

In my mind I still picture the Water Park as more of a dedicated Tourism district. At least I wish more of an emphasis was placed on that than it being a late game amenity district.
What it needs is a Casino building to generate gold based off of your tourists.

 

[Patine]

The other problem is that it's not like culture is considered a "currency" that you can spend. It needs to progress and grow to learn civics. The only other reasonable option to use is buying them with gold but that also feels kind of boring.
At least strong culture civs, such as America, can benefit with the Preserve district for faith without needing to go for Holy Sites.


In my mind I still picture the Water Park as more of a dedicated Tourism district. At least I wish more of an emphasis was placed on that than it being a late game amenity district.
What it needs is a Casino building to generate gold based off of your tourists.

Monumental endeavours meant to be tourist traps go as far back as the Colossus of Rhodes. Very little practical or utilitarian purpose to the polis has been found for it, and it's religious (or vanity for some leader) value is also disputed.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Monumental endeavours meant to be tourist traps go as far back as the Colossus of Rhodes. Very little practical or utilitarian purpose to the polis has been found for it, and it's religious (or vanity for some leader) value is also disputed.

Further. According to Plato, his ancestor Simon of Athens was guided around the Pyramids (the Great Pyramid was already 2400 years old in Solon's time, or almost as far before Solon as Solon is before us!) by a professional guide, who among other 'tall pyramid tales' told him the story of Atlantis: which both makes the story of Atlantis even less believable if you know tourist guides, and indicates that Egypt already had a Pyramid Tourism Industry almost 300 years before the 'Colossus' was built.

But the Pyramids, and most other Tourist Wonders, were not built to attract tourists - or anybody else: they were vaults to hide everything the pyramidal pharaoh wanted to haul with him into the afterlife. Until the modern Tourism As Big Business with transportation means to attract tourists from all over the world, nobody built anything specifically to attract tourists, but they built grand, imposing structures to provide other benefits (like religious temples, shrines, constructions) or accomplish something they needed done (like the Long Wall in China or Rome's Appian Way) or felt that they needed to do (like the Ho Kolossos Rhodios).

To both show the wide range of potential Tourist Attractions and 'divorce' the Tourism effect (assuming Civ VII uses it at all) from the original purpose and effect of the structure, be it Building, Improvement, District or Wonder or Civ VII's Something Else, I suggest any Tourism 'points' or effect should be part of the original structure to be activated only when conditions start generating tourists. That could be, from Solon's example, as early as the Classical Era, but will probably come much later and require both transportation technologies to get the tourists safely to the tourist trap and a source of tourists (foreign states at peace with the tourist trapper and with at least a part of their population wealthy enough to travel long and far just to see what is to be seen)

 

[9gkj548hkm20vk79dj689bnj4]

correct me if I'm wrong but
I thought "tourism" mostly stated with the Grand Tour (typically for affluent young European men visiting Rome and Greece and such in the 1700s).
Before then, the religious "pilgrimage" was more widespread, and looking at old ruins was something unheard of.

 

[Patine]

correct me if I'm wrong but
I thought "tourism" mostly stated with the Grand Tour (typically for affluent young European men visiting Rome and Greece and such in the 1700s).
Before then, the religious "pilgrimage" was more widespread, and looking at old ruins was something unheard of.

Depends on your point-of-view. There is my comment on the Colossus, and @Boris Gudenuf's above, and the fact that a log of the logs of Marco Polo read like he was getting a lot of guided tourist tours in the Far East, etc. I think an arbitrary beginning date as you are quoting would not be quite accurate.

 

[Xandinho]

or someones like Madonna, Mariah Carey, Michael Jackson, Prince, Kylie Minogue, and even more

They are alive or have recently died. I like the Entertainer idea, but I don't think it's possible to use real people until we get to Civ10 at least. But I think they should be dissociated from the faith and we should get them some other way. Also, it sucks moving rock bands all over the place, so when they go on tour, they should automatically as trade routes or something.

 

[Zaarin]

Before then, the religious "pilgrimage" was more widespread, and looking at old ruins was something unheard of.

Pilgrimage was absolutely tourism by modern standards, even if the reward was, for lack of better term, "spiritual bonus points" rather than "Kodak memories." Donations from pilgrims were big business, and many religious communities supported themselves by selling holy trinkets to pilgrims so they could say "I went on the pilgrimage to such-and-such a sacred place." It's no coincidence that the Vatican ramped up the pressure on selling indulgences around the same time they cracked down on the excesses of the Late Medieval pilgrimage industry.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

They are alive or have recently died. I like the Entertainer idea, but I don't think it's possible to use real people until we get to Civ10 at least. But I think they should be dissociated from the faith and we should get them some other way. Also, it sucks moving rock bands all over the place, so when they go on tour, they should automatically as trade routes or something.

I think you can get away with real people such as Charlie Chaplin, Walt Disney or Elvis Presley as long as they don't use any of their actual works. They'd be more like a new type of Great Person though and not restricted to just playing concerts.