Rohanna lets an AI he’s at war with just casually walk across his territory.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Vulcans, Aug 17, 2007.

  1. Vulcans

    Vulcans Prince

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    In my current game I’m best buddies with Rhoanna and we are both enemies and both at war with Einion Logos. Rhoanna is in the middle, I’m on the east and Eidolon is in the west. Rhoanna has a superior army, with mine roughly matching Einion Logos.

    So it all sounds good right? I wouldn’t expect Einion Logosto be able to get to me as he needs to cross the whole Rhoanna territory. But no, for some reason even though they are at war Rhoanna lets Eidolon walk freely and unhindered in his land, Einion Logos doesn’t pillage anything as he sends his troops across Rhoanna territory to surprise me, and Rhoanna just lets him walk freely, even though Rhoanna has vastly superior forces which could easily pick off Einion Logos units freely walking through his land. That means eidolon is free to make surprise attacks on my supply chain/re-enforcements that are walking through Rhoanna territory to the frontline, and also make surprise attacks on my territory (some of the boarders are right next to my cities due to Rhoannas huge culture).

    So what’s the deal? They are at war! Rhoanna is supposed to be my ally in this war, and he lets Einion Logos walk past his cities with a couple of strength 6 units, while his city is full of strength 8+ units, he could easily pick off Eidolons units casually walking past his city gates.

    Yes I checked, Rhoanna is still at war with Einion Logos, but he is treating this war more like a open boarder agreement then a war.

    Great War ally! He has no part to play in this war happening right in the middle of his territory; he just sits there with his popcorn and gets happy about our “mutual war effort” while watching the war comfortably from her palace couch.
     
  2. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    maybe my question is stupid but :

    are you sure the civ between you and your enemy is Rohanna ?

    couldn't it be another civ, but with border colors that look like rohanna's?

    (someone had an inverse pb, he declared war and could not attack the cities... in fact he inversed 2 civ)

    Ps : rohanna is a 'she'.... and eidolon is an 'ashen veil' unit, not a civ...

    Ps : what are the name you see of rohanna's city ?
     
  3. OzzyKP

    OzzyKP Emperor

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    I think the simpliest answer is just that the AI sucks. Hopefully better in BTS.
     
  4. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    lol

    that's simplistic... :)

    oh, you already knew it ;)
     
  5. Vulcans

    Vulcans Prince

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    yes it is rohanna.

    and yes the AI sucks, i just didn't think they'd suck that much.
    arn't they supposed to auto-attack if there is a weaker enemy unit on the adjacent tile? i thought that was a part of their script. then why doesn't their huge stack of Str8 units auto-attack the couple of Str6 units casually walking past their city?

    i wonder if they have something else strange in their little AI mind.
     
  6. Vulcans

    Vulcans Prince

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    p.s. Rhoanna is actually a IT as it is just a piece of computer script. but we can call it a she if you'd prefer.
     
  7. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    lol (nice one)
    but those naming oddities made me wondering if you could have mistaken a leader for another...
     
  8. brainpan

    brainpan Wild Potato

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    Brilliant. All units, civs, and civ leaders should be referred to as "piece of computer script," in the future. For brevity, we could also refer to them as "it." :crazyeye:
     
  9. Miloe

    Miloe Chieftain

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    there could be more to it than you see. maybe shes getting threats from other civs and shes gathering army to prevent another war? or maybe shes planning to declare war to another civ. or maybe Einion is bribing her to stay off from the war :eek: they are merceneries after all, loyalty measured by gold. (ok maybe im hoping too much from the AI in that last guess)
     
  10. xanaqui42

    xanaqui42 King

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    The short version is that the vanilla AI tends to overbuild city defenders, and overprefer using them for strict local defense. This is in part because the vanilla AI has weak provisions for flexible defense (i.e. moving resources from one city to another to defender the cities under threat more than those not under threat). This is also why the AI gains economic bonuses for units (even at Settler) - it needs more and/or stronger units than a human to achieve the same goal of defending their cities.

    While BetterAI (and mods based on BetterAI, like Smarter Orcs) fixes this issue, the flexible defense code is a major reason why they're slower than their non-AI improved counterparts. This is not because this code intrinsically needs to be slow, but because the simplest implementation basically has each defensive unit look through each city every turn to determine if that city needs it more. With, say 21 defensive units, and 7 cities, this involves around 140 needlessly redundant complex calculations per turn for one AI player. This is the next feature I intend to try to attack in the Smarter Orcs mod.
     
  11. Broken Hawk

    Broken Hawk Emperor

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    Did you have a permanent alliance with Rohanna or a defensive pact? If you declared war on the Elohim while having a defensive pact with the Hippus, you are on your own. Rohanna would have come to your aid if you had a permanent alliance or at least she should. I've had games at lower difficulty levels where I've built the Mercurian Gate and all Basium does as my permanent ally is steal one of my cities and then sit on his butt. However, kick up the difficulty level, the Mercurians come to life.
     
  12. Jarlaxle135

    Jarlaxle135 Chieftain

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    I have had many experiences mirroring the OP. Countless times I have been in wars where the AI sits in his/her cities and does nothing. Being in a permanent alliance is even worse, as your "ally" will declare war (dragging you in) and then does nothing, while the other civ(s) attack you! I try telling my allied civ to attack city "x", but they never do. Thus, I can relate to the OP's frustration. To all working to make the AI smarter, thank you.
     
  13. Vulcans

    Vulcans Prince

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    There was no permanent alliances, or defencive pacts etc involved.

    I voluntarily declared on Eidolon, as everyone else in the game was buddies, and everyone hated Eidolon, so I figured they’d be the perfect first target without upsetting other relations.

    Rohanna also volentarilly declared on Eidolon shortly after I declared.

    Rohanna had the superior army in this game, twice as powerful then any other. And was best buddies with everyone else, so I don’t think Rohanna was worried about being attacked by others.


    The only way I can figure out the logic is that Eidolon had decided I was the prime war target, (as I declared on Eidolon before Rohanna did, and Rohanna had overly defended cities). Therefore Eidolon didn’t stop to pillage or attack Rohanna while walking over Rohanna territory to get to me on the opposut side of Rohanna territory.

    And then supprising that Rohanna just let Eidolon walk through, my guess is that Rohanna had decided to go defencive and keep all their units in the cities, with many crosbnowmen monks, high priests, etc in their cities, and not strike the weaker units that are casually walking past their nose.

    There should be some punishment for AI that are lazy and slack in contributing to common wars. In real life if I was with an ally, both at war with another nation I wouldent want my ally to just sit idly letting an enemy walk through their territory to attack me, and if they refused to help in the war then they wouldent be my ally any longer.

    think of what this would be like in the real world, imagine if iraq was located where mexico is located, and canada and the US were both at war with iraq, do you think the US would happily sit back and let the iraq troops walk through their teritory unhindered to attack canada? somehow i doubt it. and do you think the iraq troops wouldent be tempted to do some pillaging and sabotage american land while at war with them while walking over US land to get to canada?

    and how would canada feel if the US let iraq troops walk over US land unhindered to attack canada? that would be a HUGE diplomatic issue!!!
     
  14. Vulcans

    Vulcans Prince

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    yes, i really hope the AI get's better, especially in fighting alliance wars. i'm going to try smarter orcs in my next game.
     
  15. Rex rgis of Ter

    Rex rgis of Ter Me I'm a Creator

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  16. Vulcans

    Vulcans Prince

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    I know, the typo was already pointed out in the second post if you'd read past the first post.


    Anyway back to the topic, i wonder what aspects of the AI script arte making it act like this, and if it's possible to change the AI scripts so that they act in a more appropriate way, and also if there would be some way to put somer diplomatic pressure on a ally that is not pulling their weight in a joint war effort.
     
  17. The Tyrant

    The Tyrant Prince

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    I think this is a vanilla AI issue. I recall back when I was testing vanilla Civ4 AI, I discovered that the AI magically "knows" where a unit is heading if its marching orders will require more than one turn to complete. While testing, I ordered a tank to attack a worker that was three turns away. The worker had five turns remaining to complete it's build order. On the very next turn the worker moved into the nearest city, abandoning the build order even though the tank was nowhere near it. I reloaded, did not give the order to attack the worker, and the worker stayed put to continue working on it's build order. I think the same "AI knowledge factor" caused the situation you described.

    You declared war on the Elohim, and in response they gave units marching orders to attack you. After that, Rhoanna gets into the mix by declaring, but the Elohim units already have their orders. The Rhoanna AI "knows" that those units don't pose a threat, because it knows where they are headed. Those units do not have orders to harrass any cities, units or improvements in Rhoanna territory, so no attempt is made to attack them. It is possible (not yet tested) that if you had had a PA with Rhoanna, then those Elohim marching orders may have been construed as a threat, but since you didn't, those units weren't attacked simply because the AI knew they were attacking you and not Rhoanna.

    EDIT: And now that I think about it, that also ties in with the fire-and-forget mentality of non-worker units. Like how a ship with a settler and warrior will continue to sail toward its destination even if the destination is settled by another before they arrive. The AI "knows" the current map situation at all times, but the orders aren't changed until the units arrive. I'm not a programmer, but from the discussions I've seen it seems that non-worker units are fire-and-forget. Orders are only reevaluated when something happens to force reevaluation: current order completed, peace declared, contacted an unexpected enemy unit, tile becomes impassable, etc. This means that if Rhoanna had taken shots at targets of opportunity, it could have backfired. As long as nothing happens to change the Elohim orders then they aren't a threat. Take a potshot at a passing SoD, though, and the entire stack will have the opportunity to reevaluate its orders and start harrassing Rhoanna. It was actually in Rhoanna's best interests to let you deal with the Elohim rather than risking pillaging and/or loss of units. With the overwhelming superiority that you describe, it wasn't the choice a human would have made, but it is perfectly understandable within the known AI mechanics. Again, all of this is part of the vanilla AI design.
     
  18. Vulcans

    Vulcans Prince

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    yess, that is obviously what was happening. i've seen other situations of "fire-and-forget" it probably saves the AI some time as it's already planned the moves, but situations can drastically change in a war, and i've seen the AI make some really stupid mistakes with the "fire-and-forget" mentality when the situation changes but it doesn't rwespond, and so marches into emminent death.

    the factor of the AI knowing everyones orders is in a way cheating, as it utelises information that it shouldent have.

    like if a human was Rhoanna and they saw a SOD walking past their capitol they'd normally react instead of "knowing" that it was intended for someone else and so not worth the effort to react to.

    well i'm glad they are working on the AI, hopefully one day they'll have decent AI, that'll make the game so much more fun!
     

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