Role of bombers in relation to fighters

[Borussia]

I personally think fighters should be the best in air to air combat and bombers should be the best in bombing things. But that is not how it currently works in the game.


I ask myself why I should build bombers if fighters can do the same damage to everything but cities?
And bombers don't do that much more damage to cities as for example cannons do compared to musketmen.
So their only role is that of a strategic bomber and it does not perform that role very well.

Fighters are far less vulnerable to air interception and and can be used for air recon, air intercept and air sweep. Fighters can be promoted to be a tank destroyer giving them also the role of tactical bomber.

I personally would prefer bombers to also have promotions to fight land or naval units (-> to be tactical and not only strategic bombers).
Currently only lvl5 bombers can get a (super weak) +15% vs land/sea promotion. Fighters of the same lvl could get +66% RCS versus armored units.

Imho bombers should be able to chose between anti city and anti land/naval promotions starting from lvl 1.
This would mean fighters had the choice of being good at interception or air sweep/escort
and bombers between the anti city and anti land/sea role.

 

[Enginseer]

u can stack bombers and fighters.

If you use a stack of bomber against SAM units, they're gonna die hard. Also, fighters make good bait against SAM units so that your bombers don't take super hardcore damage.

 

[Borussia]

The issue I tried to address was that fighters are equally as good or better as bombers at attacking land or sea units.
Why would I build bombers if I want to attack land or sea units with my air force?
I could use my first few fighters for air sweep and the rest of them for bombing. No need for bombers.


A little comparison of what I mean:
Would you build infantry or the AA gun unit If the AA unit also had 55 CS?

infantry 55CS - 1000 hammer
or
AA gun 55CS + 25%def promo + AA ability - 1000 hammer

Everybody in their right mind would always build the AA unit in that case.

 

[Stalker0]

Now that you say it, I agree. In general I focus predominately on fighters over bombers. They are just significantly more versatile, for the little I lose in city damage I gain an attacker, a defender, and a unit killer.

 

[Grabbl]

I agree that a second upgrade path for bombers from the beginning might be reasonable.

 

[Owlbebach]

Dunno guys, imo all planes are just almost useless due to how much they cost and how late they come into play. I barely can build 5-7 planes before i win the game and cost of 1 plane is about the same as cost of Pentagon...

 

[Moi Magnus]

Dunno guys, imo all planes are just almost useless due to how much they cost and how late they come into play. I barely can build 5-7 planes before i win the game and cost of 1 plane is about the same as cost of Pentagon...

And the games I'm not about to win at this point, it means I played defensively, so I probably don't have the supply to have more than few planes.

 

[CrazyG]

Dunno guys, imo all planes are just almost useless due to how much they cost and how late they come into play. I barely can build 5-7 planes before i win the game and cost of 1 plane is about the same as cost of Pentagon...

This is probably because of different difficulties.

Most of my wars end when artillery comes around, or I'm playing tradition and I'll never have the hammers or supply to build aircraft. If I' going to build a plane, I'd building a fighter for sure. In what situation am I supposed to use siege aircraft? Artillery and Cruisers already do very well against cities.

 

[Owlbebach]

This is probably because of different difficulties.

Most of my wars end when artillery comes around, or I'm playing tradition and I'll never have the hammers or supply to build aircraft. If I' going to build a plane, I'd building a fighter for sure. In what situation am I supposed to use siege aircraft? Artillery and Cruisers already do very well against cities.

Same for me, the only time i had difficulties even with Artillery was when i warred vs AI that had Brandenburg+Autocracy+Orders, and he was building Machine Guns that had Logistics right away.

As for difficulty - maybe, but i'd like to have more use of Aircraft it is fun. I think they should come 20-30 turns earlier and cost 50% less

 

[tu_79]

Last time I used planes I was playing Prince difficulty.

 

[Rekk]

You guys are winning in the Modern Era and not even using Atomic Era units?

My current game is in Atomic, and since I'm going for a Diplomatic victory, minimum win time is 20 turns after Information, so I have some time to play with Atomic Planes if I have the production to spare.

Given how fast the Information Era goes before science victory, I don't see how anyone can use any of the units in that era. There's a problem when the aggressive players have no need of the units and the defensive players can't afford to use them.

 

[Minh Le]

Wow, I use air planes a lot since I dont like using nuke. Its true that Im already winning when aircrafts come into play but its not "official" win, and aircrafts speed things up considerably. I find it better for defensive rather than offensive, and yeah fighters are much more useful than bombers. I only use bombers when I play domination and I want to end the game as fast as possible.

 

[Stalker0]

As for difficulty - maybe, but i'd like to have more use of Aircraft it is fun. I think they should come 20-30 turns earlier and cost 50% less

Or are win conditions coming up too early?

 

[Rekk]

Or are win conditions coming up too early?

Probably, but how do you extend the win condition of domination victory, the one who most wants to make use of all of these units?

We've spent a lot of effort curtailing the length if (and gains one can make from) a war, improving city defense, anti-warmonger fervor to help with defensive over aggressive actions. How much more can be done if people are still saying their wars are over in the Modern Era?

It sounds like immortal/deity players just stop producing new units by late renaissance, and just upgrade everything. Hence why air is ignored, because it's a completely new unit line that has to be produced and can't be upgraded into. Otherwise, like Owlebech says, unit costs are so high that it's not worth it for any playstyle to think about building any late era unit.

 

[Owlbebach]

Or are win conditions coming up too early?

Well that always will be an issue because realistically speaking the game ends in the beginning of Modern Era, whatever comes after almost does not exist. It is because at at that point there is no reason to invest into your cities, it is time when you are only interested in ripping off benefits from what you made earlier. There is just not enough time for anything to pay off. If you want to fix that by delaying victory - you need to delay it by a whole era at least

 

[chicorbeef]

Well that always will be an issue because realistically speaking the game ends in the beginning of Modern Era, whatever comes after almost does not exist. It is because at at that point there is no reason to invest into your cities, it is time when you are only interested in ripping off benefits from what you made earlier. There is just not enough time for anything to pay off. If you want to fix that by delaying victory - you need to delay it by a whole era at least

Do you even research labs bro? Ideologies? And I don't think that this is that true, I have had games change course as late as the Atomic.

 

[Owlbebach]

Do you even research labs bro? Ideologies? And I don't think that this is that true, I have had games change course as late as the Atomic.

Well typically research labs is what you start Modern Era with. Maybe you misunderstood me, i'm not saying that you are just clicking "next turn". But really what you need at this stage is only what makes your victory closer. In Classical or Renaissance i have some long term plans or something, but in Modern and after it is one of those 3: 1) "get all science buildings and techs asap and don't die to unhappiness" or 2) "get all tourism techs, buildings and tenets asap and don't mess with AI to avoid war" or 3) "get to UN asap and build as many diplomats as possible". Everything else just does not matter.

EDIT: For me it is always like this:
From Ancient to Industrial you need to construct a car from details that you have in your garage
In Industrial you do final tuning and check ups and start the engine
Starting from Modern you need to press gas pedal as much as you can and try not to kill yourself

 

[Rekk]

Well typically research labs is what you start Modern Era with. Maybe you misunderstood me, i'm not saying that you are just clicking "next turn". But really what you need at this stage is only what makes your victory closer. In Classical or Renaissance i have some long term plans or something, but in Modern and after it is one of those 3: 1) "get all science buildings and techs asap and don't die to unhappiness" or 2) "get all tourism techs, buildings and tenets asap and don't mess with AI to avoid war" or 3) "get to UN asap and build as many diplomats as possible". Everything else just does not matter.

EDIT: For me it is always like this:
From Ancient to Industrial you need to construct a car from details that you have in your garage
In Industrial you do final tuning and check ups and start the engine
Starting from Modern you need to press gas pedal as much as you can and try not to kill yourself

Do you enjoy this? Do you care that the Information Era might as well not exist for you?

 

[CrazyG]

My question to people building planes is have you tried spending a similar amount of hammers and gold on other military units and compared the two approaches?

I believe planes will work well on specific terrain, but in general I'd rather just have the much cheaper ships or land units.

 

[Minh Le]

My question to people building planes is have you tried spending a similar amount of hammers and gold on other military units and compared the two approaches?

I believe planes will work well on specific terrain, but in general I'd rather just have the much cheaper ships or land units.

The are land that ship cannot reach, and using both land units AND planes make things done a lot quicker because the limitation of space. The biggest strength of planes is they dont need a tile to sit on (well just a city).