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Role Play Challenge: Stalin's Iron Fist!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by madscientist, May 19, 2008.

  1. siggboy

    siggboy Monarch/Epic

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    On Marathon, you can not build 1-turn Riflemen. The gold saving tactic is huge, it was also used by that person who won an OCC conquest on Deity. He piled up about 40,000 gold, built a lot of Samurai, then mass-upgraded them to Mech Infantry.

    Another benefit of building Maces and upgrading them is that Maces can get CR III right from the start with enough settled GGs, and a CR III Rifleman (after the upgrade) is unparalleled.

    The beauty is that with an Industrious leader and Stone you can pile up a lot of gold simply by building unfinished wonders that you don't want and waiting for the AI to complete them. Ka-Ching!
     
  2. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Is building wonders partially and then letting the AI finish them really better than simply building wealth (or science) directly? I mean once you have the techs, obviously.
     
  3. schwartz

    schwartz King

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    Yes, if you have the resource. IIRC, you get multipliers on the gold you receive just as if they were hammers. (Someone can confirm??)
     
  4. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    Yes... the gold for a Wonder is 1 Hammer sitting in the box->1 Gold
    (those hammers in the box got all of the bonuses)

    As for Prophets in an OCC [conquest especially] I'd say

    Engineer >Scientist>Prophet/Merchant>Spy>Artist

    the merchant food is really useful, but the Hammers are Really useful

    and Gold can be used to Buy Techs from the AI, as well a manipulate diplomacy without giving away key techs.
    as well as upgrade possibilities
     
  5. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    Stalin's Iron Fist: Part I

    Here we plunge into Stalin's world, where he seeks global conquest.

    Played actually a fairly long round for the first segment of an RPC! That's the way it goes with a OCC!

    To start things off. our techpath

    Agriculture/Masonry/Mysticism/archery/BW/AH/writing/med/PH/Pottery/start IW. The order was a bit off, I should have delayed writing but there was no adverse effects!

    But where did we settle?



    Settled in place. Looks good enough to me and a free happy resource which we can hook up ASAP!

    we met our first adversary



    Not my top ten of who I wanted to see. Hannibal techs well and wars well, he could be trouble.

    Our scouts were pretty good, we got 86 gold, a map, 41 gold, a warrior, and



    SWEET!

    Speaking of which



    Stronge techer, weak warrior!

    And what seams to be a reincarnation from the Louis game.



    Well, at least there is only one of these guys because



    tops out our 4 AIs!

    Once we met the AIs we started piling on the wonders





    And BW reveals



    Well, that's out of the BFC! Let's what AH and IW bring us.



    OK, we have horses, no need to screw arround with the worldbuilder yet.

    The biggie wonder!



    And the last wonder of this segment



    The options



    And we select the no brainer for an Industrious leader, Metal casting.

    OK, the world view



    A little closer view, Liz to our east, Ragnar to our west, and Hannibal due south!

    The city



    I say we are doing good so far. We broke open border with Liz at Ragnar's request. we started Iron working, after that I do not know.

    The build order for the segment went

    Worker/warrior/scout/Stonehenge/Great Wall/Barracks/archer/archer/wall/Pyramid/Chariot/Chariot/Oracle.

    Diplomacy could be very interesting here, as there are no real zealots. In fact all will be happy with FR! Favrotie civics are either late (FR for Liz, FM for Hannibal) or HR which we should not adopt. The best I can hope is ourselves and Ragnar get Hinduism and we form a good block against Liz.

    So how is our Russian Tyrant doing!
     
  6. InvisibleStalke

    InvisibleStalke Emperor

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    It looks like you block off a significant chunk of land to the East. Are any AIs there? Either way it could prove interesting if you deny borders selectively. A chunk of unsettlable land could prove an interesting barb hunting ground and pillage/raze/gold/experience factory. Isolating an AI would be even better. They have probably met each other but you can possibly prevent trade income.

    I'd say thats a fairly solid start, although you need to run a library soon. Targeting the Great Library as the next key wonder and picking up the Parthenon if you can.

    If you have iron then some swords / axes could do some fun harrassment of the AIs. You may as well use the great wall to generate yourself some generals - they will even help your research.
     
  7. molson

    molson Chieftain

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    OK, i played this game almost through. Things were going really well then i had the very bad surprise of seeing a Diplomatic AP win by Ragnar. So watch out who builds it and you could think about building it yourself. Ragnar was big enough to win by his votes only.

    Another option would be to keep all borders close throughout the game so religions cant be found in moscow.

    I popped Aesthetics with the Oracle which allowed for a quick GL which was followed by theatre and Globe Theater. You really have to build the Golbe Theater asap.
     
  8. molson

    molson Chieftain

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    Well i didnt feel like restarting so i loaded the second autosave and declared war to Ragnar before the Religious victory vote hoping to kill cities and make him lose votes, but the AI asked to stop the war against Ragnar! I of course defied and after a long war, i won the game in 1991 with tanks and a stack i carried aroudn the map for years and years.

    You should go to war when you have a nice stack of cannons and cossacks. Cossacks will kill everything until Infantries...and i got there first too.
     
  9. cas

    cas Emperor

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    Played this through. Victory in 570AD and I'm not much of a warmonger and made 3 medium mistakes. BC is definitely attainable. I'm not sure why people are waiting until cossacks/rifles.

    Spoiler :

    I did not go into the worldbuilder and add iron. If I read the rules correctly, that was allowed, but it would have been too easy with iron.

    In the tech path you should aim for mathmatics, then pop construction with Oracle. Catapults are insanely overpowered if the AI does not have a tech lead. Then research archery (if you haven't already), AH, and HorseArchery so you can pump out some elephants and horse archers. Then alphabet. Or maybe Alphabet first and steal some techs.

    Basic strategy is to box as many civs as possible to keep them from expanding and researching. I could only do 3 civs (stupid mistake #1)...but a better warmonger player could probably do all 4 without crashing their economy due to unit maintenance costs. I think if you can box all 4 civs correctly in the beginning, this game can be won in the BC's with cats/charriots/archers/warriors.

    Build a barracks and get some promoted (cover) warriors out. Send two/each to Elizabeth, Ragnar, and Hannibal capitals. Park them on forest hills next to the city and the AI will stay boxed in for hundreds of turns not improving their land. They may squeeze out a 2nd city. So what. Add a 3rd warrior or archer later when the AI has about 6 archers in their capital. I did not do this, and it cost me at least 6 units and many turns (stupid mistake#2). Build GW and Mids. I used representation to boost the happiness cap so I could whip like crazy. Rep helps research rate if you run scientists or settle a GP since your economy will come close to stalling with all those units. I built most of SH and left it in the queue for gold when Jao finally built it. If you box all 4 civs properly, they may never build it though. Save as many forests as possible for chopping units...don't use them all for wonders.

    I took out Ragnar first using cats and promoted warriors. He had two cities. Then Elizabeth with cats/warriors/and a horse archer. She had 3 cities. Then Carthage with cats/warriors/HA/Elephants. He had 2 cities. So 3 civs down by 100BC or so. Jao had about 8 or 9 cities at that point, so I had to regroup and use spies with cats/HA/Elephants and a couple leftover warriors. Stupid mistake #3 was the order of AI death. I probably should have left Elizabeth for last.

    This was a fun game, but it would have been more challenging with civ less suited to the scenario. Industrial + aggressive helped a lot. So did the stone.


    edited for clarification on some points.
    cas
     
  10. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Lol, spectacular. I'm seriously impressed, I should have gone this route rather than the idiocy I went through. I'll have to keep that kind of play in mind for NON OCC games also, since "conquest" of an entire continent (which would be smaller than an entire small pangaea or at most same size) would be pretty strong. Of course, not just any civ could pull that off, especially higher up in difficulty, but still worth noting how comically easy this was for you after I got my tail kicked in (and I'm a pretty sound warmonger, just have no OCC experience and got too cautious).
     
  11. dubrown

    dubrown Prince

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    I'm doing a little shadowgame of this one as well (seems very popular to do so). I have to say it's a pretty good startposition for an OCC even though lacking some vital resources. I have to say the lack of Happy resources in the vicinity will call for GT in this one. But on the other hand, health shouldn't be a problem. I won't be editing in any iron or oil in my game if they're lacking. I'm usually pretty lucky with popping an ironmine from a mine in most of my marathon games so there's a hope but else, Iron shouldn't be needed, it'd make things easier, but not overall necessary.

    The rest may include some spoilers so for the sake of it, I should put it in tags, but I would guess it'd be safe for most to read it.

    Spoiler :

    My start looks pretty much like Mad's, though I wonderhogged little too much, I thought I lost that addiction a while back, but obviously not. So far I have this list built in this order: GW, Pyr, Henge, Oracle, SoZ, GLib, Hang Gard, Parthenon. (pew...)

    Off course this meant I totally missed out on the idea I had to hinder AI growth with early pressure. Now the AIs have grown strong, all but Liz hindu so I'm playing it to only try to annoy Liz atm. I've likely missed the window where I could do a successful conquest with Elephants, HAs and cats and I'm not ahead enough in tech to feel comfortable. Now I'll build up a massive force of cats and Mounted units in waiting for a good opportunity to start the conquest. With Joah, Ragnar and Hannibal all Hindu it'll be hard to toss them against each other at this point. Toss everyone at Liz would be easy but not much gain for me there, Liz I can handle.

    So we'll see how it plays out...

     
  12. Abegweit

    Abegweit Anarchist trader

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    Indeed I am very impressed as well.

    I went wonder-spamming: SH - GW - Mids - Chicken ( :eek: ) - Oracle ( guess which tech I picked with that :mischief: ) - HG. My current project is the MoM. Then I will choose some of the Aesthetics wonders. As I am about to learn Music, they should go up quite quickly. This is a very strong opening with the only Industrious civ on small map Marathon. I am far ahead in tech (CS while several civs don't yet have CoL, almost to Music when none have Aesthetics).

    However, as cas has proven, there is an even better route. I think that the map size is the most important consideration for this. This would be a lot harder to pull off with six opponents. But as you say, the civ and the level are important too. And, as cas points out, the construction beeline is simply deadly on small Marathon. I think I might give this a whirl for my first attempt at deity.

    As for this game, I could surely execute my original plan of winning with tanks with ease. Somehow there doesn't seem to be any point now. Perhaps I'll switch to space. Perhaps I'll quit...
     
  13. cas

    cas Emperor

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    That date can be absolutely crushed by a lot of ppl who post in these forums. The three glaring errors I made cost dozens of turns or more each and led to a domino effect on some other time wasters. I will play this game again over the weekend tweaking the strat a bit and hopefully acheive BC. Having knowledge of the map/civs will help a little on the 2nd attempt, but not a lot.

    I need some practice with the :ar15: and :whipped: anyway.

    cas
     
  14. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity

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    You're not seriously considering building that chariot instead of a forge/library, are you?
     
  15. Wilhelmus

    Wilhelmus Chieftain

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    Sholdn't you get the oil from standard Ethanol instead of WB?
    You have the resources for this corporation.
     
  16. madscientist

    madscientist RPC Supergenius

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    @ shadowers! Congrats to all those who have successfully shadowed the game! While an early victory is often a sign of an excpetional game, these RPCs are about game enjoyment and a demonstrative game. So I will definitely play it out slower unless there is a key point to go for the Jugular. I on my off-line OCC conquest game, so I feel confident on how to approach it!

    @ Dutch, I gotta admit after Julius 1 and firghting 2 Ragnars in the Louis game I am a little gunshy of that dude with teh pointy helmet. I prefer a few more chariots before I start a forge/library.

    @ Wilhemus, you bring up a decent point there. I am considering whether to avoid worldbuilder or not depending on iron/oil (I am doubtful considering the spoiler talk I have yet to read!). We have horses, so Cossacks are a given. We have war elepnats and may be able to catch the copper by the macemen age. As you mention we can found standard ethanol at plastics, if we are alive by then and it's only one more tech.

    So with my new found confidence and the great Russian UU I'll wait on adding iron/oil if need be. However, I reserve the right to add a mined/roaded iron resource if we face extermination!
     
  17. Gooblah

    Gooblah Heh...

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    On Monarch, you can crush cities guarded by Archers that have not expanded into the Fat Cross pretty easily. It'll be better for you since you're Aggressive.

    1) Build 3 Warriors per enemy Archer. Give each the Cover promotion.
    2) Attack the city.
    3) Raze the city.
    4) Repeat.

    Its not hard, and I've used it to great effect.
     
  18. siggboy

    siggboy Monarch/Epic

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    While that early rush was certainly spectacular, a very daring, cheeky style of play, I don't think it would help with another continent on the same map.

    Eliminating all the AIs by the early ADs leaves your entire continent vacated. You will be behind in tech compared to the other continent and your actual expansion won't have started. This basically means you start the game at that point with a few wonders in your only city and a lot of obsolete units that you might have to delete to recover your economy.

    Unless there is complete chaos on the other continent chances are you will lose a late game if you're playing on one of the higher difficulties because you won't be able to catch up.

    One way I could see this strategy succeed is if you manage to build a reasonable super-capital during the early Cat shenanigan which might carry you through the late development of some satellite cities. Just as Obsolete likes to play it, but he does expand much earlier (he doesn't really explain how important his other cities actually are, so it's difficult to evaluate for me).
     
  19. siggboy

    siggboy Monarch/Epic

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    The one thing you're missing out on if you lack Iron is going to be Cannons. The Cossack and Rifleman do not require Iron, and we have horses already.

    Cannons can be substituted with Trebuchets and Spies, and later on Artillery (doesn't need Iron either if I'm not mistaken).

    Oil can be replaced with bio-ethanol, which is the hype of the day anyway in the USA. Let Russia have it, too :).
     
  20. cas

    cas Emperor

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    If you are referring to a non-OCC continents game, it works just fine on emporer. You use the former AI capitals and whip workers in them to cottage and whip improvements too. The AI capitals are usually in good start positions with either cottage-spam or GP farm resources. Those 2-3 cities fuel your economy and they can also spit out a few units to make the conquest faster. If there are 3 AI's on your continent you will have 4 great city locations by 0AD if played right. Each AI on the other continent will have 1-2 great cities and 3-4 average ones before they run out of room. Eventually you fill in the gaps in your continent and outpace them. AI stinks at overseas conquest too.

    There are possible issues if the other continent only has 1 religion and no warmonger AI's, but you can still overcome it easily by late game.

    I make no assertions about immortal / deity. I can only win very specific setups on those levels.

    cas
     

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