1. We have added the ability to collapse/expand forum categories and widgets on forum home.
    Dismiss Notice
  2. All Civ avatars are brought back and available for selection in the Avatar Gallery! There are 945 avatars total.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. To make the site more secure, we have installed SSL certificates and enabled HTTPS for both the main site and forums.
    Dismiss Notice
  4. Civ6 is released! Order now! (Amazon US | Amazon UK | Amazon CA | Amazon DE | Amazon FR)
    Dismiss Notice
  5. Dismiss Notice
  6. Forum account upgrades are available for ad-free browsing.
    Dismiss Notice

Romani Civilization? Feasible? Controversial?

Discussion in 'Civ - Ideas & Suggestions' started by PhoenicianGold, Feb 8, 2018.

  1. TahamiTsunami

    TahamiTsunami Chieftain

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2017
    Messages:
    130
    Gender:
    Male
    Definitely an interesting discussion that I've learned a fair amount from. As long as some other notable civs make it in eventually, I personally wouldn't mind seeing something like this in game. Unfortunately I don't know enough about this topic to really add any info or details, but I am fascinated by it and will hope for the best!
     
    Greywulf likes this.
  2. luei333

    luei333 Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 25, 2014
    Messages:
    166
    So, I'm going to put together a working version of the mod, including graphics. I've done some google searching, but I think you guys should be the final arbiters of what images we end up using. Keep in mind, each of these need to be cut out from their background and presented by themselves, ideally.

    Here's what I've found for the Vardo:

    I know nothing about traditional Vardo designs, but I thought this was a good image, since it's fully in frame (the bottom is going to be cut out of the unit portrait circle anyways), not blurry or artifacted, and colorful, in the Civ6, and hopefully Romani, style.

    The Romen Theater:

    This is apparently the most famous Romen Theater in Russia, but there are not that many good photos of it. For a building photo, it should be cut out all the way around, and taller than it is wide, or similar dimensions. But this is one of the better images for it. Do let me know if you can find any better images, I'd be happy to use em.

    The man himself:

    This is not a good picture for a leader, but it's pretty much the only one of Stefan Razvan. Ideally you want thigh- or waist-up for a leader, at the very least, and at least large enough to fit the head into a like 200x200 circle. It'd be great to have a good-looking one made by some of the awesome modders in the community, but we'd need something as a placeholder at least. I might look at the one you posted, with them riding horses, we'll see.
     
    Greywulf likes this.
  3. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    455
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Earth
    Fantastic, I very much look forward to seeing the mod!

    Just regarding the picture of the man, that is actually of Sigismund Báthory, not of Ștefan Răzvan. I'm not aware of any portraits of Ștefan Răzvan outside of his face on a coin though...




    As you can see, he has a beard and a crown. We might have to find a way to construct a picture of him ourselves. He would have had brown skin and probably black hair.
     
  4. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,646
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    The Romani could even have similar mechanics to the Roving Clans in Endless Legend, except with a cultural focus.
     
    Greywulf likes this.
  5. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    455
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Earth
    That does sound cool, although how would you incorporate that into Civ VI?
    I appreciate your input!
     
  6. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,646
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    The Vardo could be a unique settler. A city founded by a Vardo can be disestablished to become a Vardo, allowing the city to be relocated. Excess population from the disestablishment of a city would move to the other nearby Romani cities. The Romani can also transfer population from one city to another as well; once a city has zero population from transfer (thereby becoming disestablished), the city would become a Vardo. However, the capital cannot be disestablished (and therefore cannot cheat warmongers off from their domination victory).

    However, the Romani are unable to capture enemy capital cities, thereby locking them out of domination victory.
     
  7. luei333

    luei333 Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 25, 2014
    Messages:
    166
    Guhhhh, oh my god, I can't even imagine what it would take to program something like that in, and in a state where the AI could use it, haha. Also, it would be really easy to just pump population from a new city into the rest of your empire forever, since smaller cities grow much faster than larger ones.
     
  8. luei333

    luei333 Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 25, 2014
    Messages:
    166
    So, I looked at working on the images for the mod, and we really need a couple more images, haha. Honestly the most important one we need is a leader image, and the Roma Mercenary needs one too. It's so hard to find any visual reference for a Romani military unit. One of the images you have on the civ's post I found elsewhere, much bigger, and with context: http://mrbelloblog.com/warriors-of-the-abbasid-caliphate/

    Let me know if that picture works for either picture, or try and find some other picture for the Roma Merc. For Stefan, I'll probably just use that terrible one from the coin as a placeholder, haha.

    Also, I spent some time on putting together another mod, only to have it crash in the weirdest way, and eat up the rest of my day today, so hopefully that won't happen with this one.
     
    Greywulf likes this.
  9. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    455
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Earth
    That picture would work, especially since it's from a closely related ethnic group from a similar time period to when the Romani used Mercs. Alternatively however there is this: http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-si...ffe-during-a-traditional-horse-112161027.html
    I don't know exactly what they looked like, only an idea of what they probably looked like. Perhaps there are pictures somewhere, but these are the closest that I could find.

    As for their leader, some of the modders seem to be building their own leader figures, for example this one: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/gedemos-civilizations.623444/
    Not sure if we can organize similar, but it seems like that would be the best idea for it, as we only have a coin to go off. Otherwise we need to find some other leader's picture that looks very close to what Ștefan looked like, including having dark skin, a crown and a beard.
     
  10. luei333

    luei333 Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 25, 2014
    Messages:
    166
    Okay! So. I finally took the time to make the images for the mod, and put together some code. It's not done yet, and I've run into a bug with the template I made, but hopefully that will be resolved soon. I still have yet to code the stuff that will require Lua, but I'm going to that soon. I'll share the code once it can actually load into the game, but for now, here's the images I've made so far:

    https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1KM53KtBaO0vFb5pR1jKIyIF3QnWK2B2S?usp=sharing

    Also, to note, I don't have icons for either of the unit flags (what appears above them on the map, and is colored based on the leader's colors). Right now, the Vardo just uses the Romani civ symbol, which is probably fine, but we almost definitely need something for the Roma Merc. If you want to point me to a symbol to use for the merc (and maybe the vardo if you can find one), I'll make suitable images out of 'em. Keep in mind that they will end up being flat, single-color images in the end, so just simple icons or symbols.
     
    Greywulf likes this.
  11. JamesFaith

    JamesFaith Chieftain

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2018
    Messages:
    11
    Gender:
    Male
    I have no symbol tied directly to mercenaries but I found this picture of Romanian sewing patterns.



    I think that EYE - PROTECTION symbol should be good icon and protection meaning is fitting for mercenary.
     
  12. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    455
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Earth
    Awesome work! Fantastic to see progress with this mod!

    Perhaps we can find a horseman symbol that looks fairly similar as a template. It won't be perfect, but it might be fine for a mod...
    Here are some that I found:
    https://www.canstockphoto.com/vector-horsemen-set-10349232.html (Perhaps the top right one here?)
    http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-vector-symbol-of-a-horseman-warrior-104378555.html

    A potential one for the vardo as well:
    https://www.etsy.com/au/listing/245...e0acc98c001e70234d236de564b275f155d:245350103
     
  13. luei333

    luei333 Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 25, 2014
    Messages:
    166
    Those arent't bad, but the ones that you said would be good for the roma merc come from stock image sites, which means you'd have to pay for them. Now, I could easily just rip them anyways, but I'm hesitant to do so, lest we invite some sort of legal action or something. Who knows. The Vardo one I'm fine with grabbing, though.

    Also, here's the mod so far:
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rcGImkDRO1nOaGo5db-NB6QmTlLz_6Bi/view?usp=sharing
    Just paste the 'Romani' folder to C:\Users\USERNAME\Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization VI\Mods and it should appear under the 'Additional Content' page in the game.
    If you guys want, I could share the project files with you directly; you'd be able to access and edit the files, and wouldn't have to wait for me to zip them and upload them like this. If you want to, just send me your email (personal message on CivFanatics is fine).
     
    Greywulf likes this.
  14. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,646
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    As long as you don't make money out of the stock images, they are fine.
     
    TahamiTsunami and Greywulf like this.
  15. dunkleosteus

    dunkleosteus Lieutenant Commander

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Messages:
    502
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I am staunchly opposed to a Romani civ. I want to clarify that it isn't because of prejudice or contempt towards the people or culture, but simply that they defy every definition Civ uses. They are not a geographically bound culture. They do not have their own permanent cities. They don't have a government, military, or any political infrastructure. They would not be the first nomadic people to be given a civilization (look at the Huns) but under Attila, the Huns had a strong leader and a fearsome military. They were able to conquer and raid and control territory.

    That said, I think it would be great to have semi-nomadic people in the game. Before the creation of Israel, the Jewish community was largely dispersed across Christian Europe and the interplay between the two cultures appears many times in history. I think it would be great if the Romani or other nomadic people could function as a sort of nomadic city state. They could be traders or craftsman or mercenaries depending on the type of people. Rather than having a single city, their population could be spread across multiple cities in multiple civs and depending on how favourably they viewed you, they might send more people to your cities. In your cities, they could increase the food, gold, production, faith, culture, science or production towards military units. Maybe they allow cities to have free specialists, which would be quite nice. But there would probably be a trade off, like reduced loyalty or something like that. I think that would be a great mechanic.
     
  16. orasis

    orasis Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2006
    Messages:
    371
    They're not and have never been a civilization, so I'm against it.
     
  17. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    455
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Earth
    A quick answer on these points...
    Each tribe calls a certain territory their "home", rather than literally everywhere, and some tribes still remain in the Indus Valley region, which is where they originated, and they have never left it (in this case they are not stateless) ~ in such a case I think we could call them "geographically bound".
    What is your definition of a city? Depending on where, they have settlements, quarters, suburbia, high rise buildings, and relatively large populations in one urban location.
    There have been many individuals who have been leaders over clans or tribes, and there is even actual dynasties of leadership within the Romani nation, including titles such as "kings" and "emperors" (generally not taken seriously outside of the Romani Nation, but are a big deal within the Romani Nation). Besides this, some individual Romani people managed to become nobles of other nations, such as the case of Ștefan Răzvan.
    For a period of time many of them specialized in mercenary work for other nations, which is why we are aiming for a Roma Merc UU.

    I understand where you are both coming from, however there is another agenda at work here. The inclusion of a Romani civ would mean that Firaxis would be taking a stand against racism, and it would be a method of fighting racism. I think it is worth bending the rules a little bit here for such a noble cause that is actually rather needed (there is still a huge amount of racism against Romani people). It's not like they haven't been bending the rules before, including various colonial civs and nomadic civs, so this isn't that much of a stretch anyway. As it happens, we are able to locate enough for them to fill the requirements of a civ for Civ VI.

    Anyway, at least you know why we are pushing for this inclusion, and that it's not all that an unrealistic an inclusion either way, considering the history of which civs have been included in the game series, and how rich the history of the Romani Nation is.
     
  18. God of Kings

    God of Kings Ruler of all heads of state

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2012
    Messages:
    4,646
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    Don't forget about the impact the Romani made on Western culture (even if it's based on straw Romani).

    In 1859 for example, Friedrich Burgmüller composed a piano composition based on Romani music.



    Yes, I know that Carmen and the Hunchback of Notre Dame feature Romani characters, but they're straw Romani.

    It would be great if actual works by the Romani were featured in Civ VI.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2018
    Greywulf likes this.
  19. dunkleosteus

    dunkleosteus Lieutenant Commander

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2015
    Messages:
    502
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I think trying to be noble is good. I think that fighting racism and oppression are good. But Firaxis isn't a human rights activism organization. 2K isn't in the business of making bold political statements. They're a game development company. The paycheck security for all Firaxis's employees hinges on the production of a game that people enjoy, that works well and that didn't cost them too much. In that sense, they are not free to do whatever they like for whatever purpose they like. Commercial game development is not the place to experiment with politicism. Indie developers, sure. Mod devs for civ 6 mods? Great.

    I'm not just saying I think a Romani civilization would be out of place in the game, I think the higher-ups at Firaxis and 2K wouldn't give them the go-ahead to do it.

    Civilization never claimed to be a platform for every culture and people to find representation. From an anthropological perspective, Civ actually has a very archaic view of history, one that many modern Anthropologists dislike: the idea that people that don't settle in cities are "primitive" or "barbarians". This was a common viewpoint in the 19th century and earlier, and entered popular media in the 20th century, but it is one that the field of Anthropology has tried to fight for decades. Civilization is not a bulwark of justice and liberty. It isn't a medium to teach morality to the world. That would be hypocritical, and I think, unnecessary.

    If your question is "Should a mod be made for the Romani?" then the answer is "Yes, sure, mods can be about anything, and anyone that wants them can have them."
    If your question is "Should Firaxis release them officially?" I think the answer should be "no". You must admit that trying to fit the Romani into Civ's definition of a Civilization is a stretch (because they aren't one! And there's nothing wrong with that! That's what anthropologists have been trying to tell us for years, and Civ is on the wrong side of that argument).

    So basically, I think in the context of cultural and moral justice, Civ is already on the "bad" side, but we try to ignore that and play the game. As was recently brought up with the Cree, trying to squash a culture that doesn't fit the traditional civilization mold sometimes ends up insulting the people the culture is based on. If you wanted to represent who the Romani are truthfully, you couldn't shoehorn them into the strict guidelines that Civ has without drastically upsetting the gamerules or altering the culture beyond recognition.
     
  20. Greywulf

    Greywulf Chieftain

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2008
    Messages:
    455
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Earth
    Indeed. Or Pablo Picasso...



    Yes, Civilization is not an accurate measure of real history, and does not perfectly represent ethnicities that they decide to make into civs for the game. It is extremely popular however, and is sold around the world, and thus a statement from them would be significant for a lot of people around the globe. They can use the historical page in the Civilopedia to help to dispel myths and misconceptions, and they can encourage people everywhere to do more research on a culture they know little to nothing about. Granted, there are some cases where the devs would not be free to do so, like in the case of Tibet and Israel...Both these civs have fan bases, but if they added either of them there would be consequences (getting the game banned in China, for instance, would really affect sales). The Romani Nation is in a different situation. It's not so much of a political statement, but more of a positive act that others observe and share in merely by playing the game. I'm not sure if you've seen the movie "42"? It's an American film, and it's about an African American who succeeds in baseball despite enormous pressure against him due to racism. I recall a scene in the film where the audience chant hatred at the man, but one of his teammates comes up to him and embraces him in front of everyone, including personal fans and family members, and made a statement. It was such a moving and impressive scene. It is such a beautiful scene, it makes me cry. Here, I just found it on Youtube...

    I believe that such an inclusion into Civilization would be a similar action to this. The racism against Romani people is very real, and a much bigger problem than most people realize in most parts of the world...Many do not even know that there is any racism happening against this ethnic group, and most people who know about the Holocaust (Porajmos) don't know that these people were victims too.
     
    God of Kings and TahamiTsunami like this.

Share This Page