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Rome

Discussion in 'Leader Balance' started by Funak, Oct 15, 2014.

  1. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    UA - 25% Production towards buildings that already exist in the Capital.

    Always been solid and will keep being solid

    Start with Iron in the first 5 cities.

    Not 100% sure this is actually needed anymore. For those who don't know how it works it adds a 1 quantity ironsource under your first 5 cities, it was there because Rome was all about the early rush or something like that, and I think the legion was available earlier than the swordsman at some point.

    Unique Unit: Legion - strong sword unit that can build roads and forts faster than workers

    This unit needs some change that actually stays with it when upgraded. Maybe extra stremgth when attacking instead of always? Maybe a minor heal on kill or something? Suggestions are welcome.

    Unique Building: Forum - bonus to production and happiness as a market

    Same boat as the Trade office(netherland UB) in that it was never properly tested, the idea is pretty solid and the Forum was center of roman cities so it is pretty thematic. The bonuses could however probably be changed to just about anything since the Forum was pretty much a multipurpose market/tradecenter
     
  2. BigBadBear

    BigBadBear Chieftain

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    Drop the Iron. Maybe have them start with mining so Iron is visible from the start?

    Let the Legion keep their unique improvement options on upgrade. like an engineering corps in modern armies. (Is that the correct term, in Dutch we call them Genie, the guys n gals who build the roads, fortifications and so on). That would be pretty powerful, so I would keep their strength as is.

    No idea on the forum. Never really played Rome much. Usually got clobbered early :)
     
  3. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I'm not sure the improving tiles thing can actually be kept on upgrade, it's not a promotion but part of the base unit, othervise I would totally agree with you.
     
  4. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    Melee units need to withstand ranged attacks mostly. Making the testudo promotion help against ranged attacks and stay on upgrad would boost the legion the most. That said it kinda depends on whether the civ should be a rusher of the classical era or have more staying power. The above legion + the UA is sufficient enough imho. The "production-forum" helps even more for a nice wide-conqueror.

    I feel that's enough, no?
     
  5. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    You're suggesting something like turning them into swordsmen with cover 1 and 2 promotions? That sounds great actually, maybe too powerful, but if you pull their basepower down to the same level as normal swordsmen that could work.

    My idea of Rome isn't really a conquering powerhouse in the sense of mongolia or the huns, more like a civ of extreme stability and infrastructure that isn't afraid to go to war to protect their intrests, and all this actually helps this point.
     
  6. Lord Tirian

    Lord Tirian Erratic Poster

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    Dropping the iron is good, very much agree with that. Giving the legion Cover (or functional equivalent) as promotion works well, is thematic and versatile, I like that.

    I'm not sure whether I'm a fan of the forum, it feels a bit of a catch-all - I'd at least drop the happiness bonus (making it more of an infrastructure enabler).

    Something I think could work would be an UB like this (though it might be too good):

    Triumphal Arch: Replaces the monument, gives +1 :c5production:. I like it thematically and it gives the boost needed for an early rush but remains useful throughout.
     
  7. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    The Forum could be more focused, it doesn't really have to however. It was a market that doubled as mostly everything else. I personally think the current bonuses are perfect for Rome (but again I haven't had chance to actually test it in game). The happiness enables early conquering or settling and the production helps jumpstart your infrastructure. Also keep in mind that the numbers on the forum are balanced around being half/half right now, don't have the numbers in my head but I think it's somewhere like 1 happiness(normal average is 2) and 5 or 10% production(might be a flat value actually, I can't remember at all:D).

    I personally like the idea of the forum because thats what the roman cities were built around, and it was the center of the city for mostly everything. I personally think it makes for a perfect UB.
    Also an ancient era UB feels a little bit too early for the romans imo.
     
  8. Wichtel

    Wichtel Chieftain

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    I think Rome could be even better if we focus it even more on being a tall/wide hybrid. I propose to take the production bonus away from the Forum and integrate it into the UA.

    New UA:
    All Roads lead to Rome
    25% Production towards buildings that already exist in the Capital.
    Your Capital gains +1 :c5production: for every city connected to your capital


    This will fix one problem there is with Rome, if your starting area is low in production your UA does very little. Furthermore your Legions being able to build roads ties into the UA now.
     
  9. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    To be perfectly honest, I think the UA is fine. It isn't overpowered by any means but it is still pretty damn powerful. Your change probably isn't going to change that a lot anyways, 1 production per extra city is really not that much, but it feels like unnecessary work tbh.

    Also I don't see how a low production start is going to hurt Rome that much, you usually rushbuy the important buildings anyways to get them done quickly.
    Don't get me wrong low production starts are terrible for everyone but not any more for Rome than others imo.
     
  10. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Rome's new building (the Triumphal Arch) is really potent, and gets stronger as you build more cities (as the bonus from victory effectively compounds for every city you have). That works well with their UA, making Rome a strong expansionist civ.
    G
     
  11. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    I still think the Forum is a better unique building. That's how the romans built their settlements, they built a forum as a center and then they built a city around it.

    I have no doubts about the Arch being good, at all actually, it looks pretty solid. But like all the other monument/shrine replacements(and graneryreplacements if they actually existed) it is just superboring, you're going to build those building anyways. In fact I can't remember the last time I built something other than a monument as a first building in a city.
    Again, don't get me wrong I think the idea is solid, but a monument replacement is boring and a market would be more fun.
     
  12. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    But everyone builds markets as well. I'd rather have the UB as early as possible, to maximize Rome's bonus from fighting barbarians (as history would have it).

    G
     
  13. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Everyone builds markets eventually, everyone builds monuments as a first building. And I'm not sure those barbarians that rome fought were actual barbarians :D
    I'm just saying that romans built forums, romans promoted trade and romans built infrastructure. And again I think monuments are really boring :D
     
  14. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    That's not a compelling argument. :)

    CSD has a Wonder for the Roman Forum anyways – just build that as Rome?
    G
     
  15. mitsho

    mitsho Deity

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    That's nitpicky, no?

    I guess, one fewer monument ub would've been nice. But then, a triumphal arc fits the description of the effect and is a monument after all.. So...
     
  16. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    Hey, I'm dead tired and I'm working doubletime trying to answer all posts I missed :D

    I really don't think a wonder should be a reason why a building can't exist. I mean it's not like notre dame de Paris means there can be no cathedral building. It's not like the great mosque means you can't have normal mosques. Same thing would the Library/Lighthouse and the Great Library/Lighthouse.

    I just think the forum symbolizes the roman civilization way better than some monument :D. I mean in civ4 they had the Forum as a UB if I remember correctly.(If it was the arch and not the forum please kill me before I can actually check it)
     
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    It was a forum. The ability of the Triumphal Arch meshes well flavor-wise, and Romans built just as many Triumphal Arches (historically) as they did forums. In fact, considering that the forum was based on the Grecian concept of the Agora, it actually isn't as 'unique' to Rome as the idea of a Triumphal Arch. Romans invented the Triumphal Arch, whereas they borrowed the Forum (don't forget that I'm a historian by day, and a messy coder by night!). :)

    G
     
  18. Lord Tirian

    Lord Tirian Erratic Poster

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    It was. :)

    I think it's thematically a decent fit, I just dislike, much like Gazebo, that the Market comes a bit too late. Personally, I wouldn't mind having the Forum but unlocking it earlier (which is an interesting and rare bonus in itself, I find)... but I remember you weren't a fan of that! ;)
     
  19. Funak

    Funak Deity

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    :D

    Ok I'm kinda out of arguments, I just think forums are way cooler. Triumphal Archs are just huge boring piles of stone(not really). And all Monument replacements are boring because you start with the tech and you're going to build it as a first building in every city anyways.

    I just think it needs to be done well. For some buildings just being avaiable a few techs earlier isn't a bonus, they are expensive and usually you don't have the time to build them anyways.
    In this case however I think it might work, assuming one could fit some fitting bonus on it.
     
  20. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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