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Rookie Mistakes

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Xoon, Jun 14, 2020.

  1. Xoon

    Xoon Warlord

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    What are some basic mistakes you still see players do (or you catch yourself doing) regularly that should never be done? I'm mainly starting this to identify and self-correct any bad habits I have.

    One I noticed I still do is move several tiles at a time. There's really no reason to do this, and it can put you in a bad spot if you stumble onto an enemy during the first step.

    I'm also overly tempted to build a scout first every time and I never fail to regret it when I do.
     
  2. Mount Suribachi

    Mount Suribachi Prince

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    Focussing too much on wonders. It's an obvious temptation as they're nice and shiny and everyone likes to get them.

    Not realising the power of the chop to give you Turn Advantage (and not knowing what Turn Advantage is)
     
    OmegaDestroyer likes this.
  3. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    I aim for Religions too much. 90% of the time founding your own Religion is useless unless you are specifically aiming at Religious victory, and if you are aiming at Religious Victory, you have to actually commit to it. I go for a Religion when I already know I'm aiming for Culture, Science, or Domination, and regret it every single damn time. I think it's because I just dislike on some basic level feeling "locked out" of a whole system of gameplay. Nevertheless, most of my succesful Deity games came from completely ignoring Religion entirely.
     
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  4. Starwars

    Starwars Prince

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    -I also like to get a Religion even though when I look at it afterwards, it's very rare that I find I got some proper use out of it.

    -I'm extremely bad at timing when I go to war and I often let wars go on for too long.

    -I'm not really good at planning ahead for districts, wonders, national parks, stuff like that.
     
  5. Xoon

    Xoon Warlord

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    Yeah, I've finally gotten to the point where I don't feel like I'm missing out by not getting a religion. Basically my rule is if a leader's unique abilities rely on religion, I make a play for it, but if not I just move on. It just takes too much investment in the higher levels.
     
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  6. MrRadar

    MrRadar Emperor

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    Starting their build with a slinger, or even worse - putting out a few of them in a row. It is probably that fixation on the Archery eureka that makes them do that. Any other available starting option is better, imo.

    If you're threatened, it is better to have a few warriors first, before putting out a slinger. Warriors can tank some damage, they have strong first promotions and can shield your poor slinger when time comes to set it up for that kill, just in time for the eureka. Slingers alone in the field tend to die in vain, and even if you manage to get the eureka early - what of it? It takes a bit of time to finish Archery, and then you must sacrifice gold on the upgrades which could be spent with more use elsewhere. I think it is better to build archers outright with Agoge than to upgrade early slingers into them.

    If there are three improvable tiles, it may be better to open with a builder.
    Else, and if not some island map, it may be better to start with a scout.
    In some cases, if you have a legendary production start, maybe even starting with a monument can be considered.

    Also, not switching their production in response to a new situation. I used to see on reddit screenshots of territory ravaged by invading barbs, while their rulers were continuing to build monuments, wonders or similar stuff, just not troops.
     
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  7. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Not building a campus in every city.
     
  8. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    I'm really quite skeptical of all of this. At least on Deity, unless you're strongly isolated, you need to get a basic military of 4-5 units up extremely quickly or your nearest neighbour will aggro you. The Slinger is a mere 35 production, compared to 60 for the Archer and 40 for the Warrior - you can get Slingers up quickly. Moreover, once you do hit Archery, Slingers immediately go from makeshift anti-Barb units to really useful units you can send on an immediate strike. Warriors can't do that, they're stuck being mostly useless all the way until Swordsmen, a loooong way up the tech tree. The gold spent turning 4 Slingers immediately into 4 Archers (rather than waiting to get 4 Archers up and into position from scratch) is pretty trivial when that first-mover advantage lets you conquer a city or two.

    Meanwhile... Builders that early are nearly useless. What are you even improving that early on? And Scouts do even less defence than Slingers, so the comparison is weird. And starting with a Monument in your capital is worst of all, you already have the palace to push out borders, a Monument does basically nothing for you.

    I'd have said the exact opposite to you, tbh. One of the biggest things for improving on Deity for me was learning never to build Scouts, or at least leave them until a lot later on when I just need a stray unit for meeting City-States and the remaining Civs. Meanwhile, Slingers are life.
     
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  9. monikernemo

    monikernemo Warlord

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    What is wrong with a first scout build? First meeting city states and getting goody huts are good. I guess the only problem is when there is a rough terrain, scouts are as slow as slingers/warriors.

    I used to always buy a trader whenever I unlock trade routes, but realised that the ROI seems to be quite poor.
     
  10. Xoon

    Xoon Warlord

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    This might be only on the maps I play or whatever, but on the higher difficulties, I find if I don't get to a city state with my first warrior, I'm not getting to them first at all. In about 50% of my starts, I pop a scout with a goody hut anyway early on, so then I have 2 units with very little utility for the entire rest of the game. I'd much rather explore with something that can knock out a barbarian camp before they scout me and overrun my city.
     
  11. Vizurok

    Vizurok Magyar Soldier

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    Amazing that Civ6 is such a complex game that players cannot even agree on the very first actions to pursue in game. Although no one in this thread has even started to get into the different setups that would lead to very different starting actions, I will assume that we are talking about a standard peaceful Pangea / Continents.

    Personally, I like the feel of some of your points, but I feel like that your conclusions are just not there for me.

    First of all, if we do not plan for early war, we should assume that we want to be defended from our neighbors. Building up a basic military is certainly a way to do that but it's much more cost (production) efficient to simply avoid wars by making friends with the AI - moving around with a Scout will provide you with the "frendly meeting" modifier that will be an important factor in diplomacy. Also, while it's technically true that the Scout only costs 5 shields less than a Slinger but the Scout should not be considered a military unit (although it can still use its quickness to sneak-attack damaged Barb camps) and those 35 shields will almost certainly traded for much more resources even in the earliest games (considering goody huts, CS first meeting yields, envoys and tons of Era Score if you are interested in a Classical Golden Age). Sleeping on expansion renders some of these free goods lost forever and definitely hurts your snowballing potential. If a player is truly scared from AI or Barb threats, then it's still more effective to build up the to-be-upgraded-to-Archers Slingers using the Agoge card after reaching Craftsmanship.

    This argument also eases into the Monument start that might be better than some people realize (Of course, personally, I would never recommend starting with anything but a Scout.) : your main goal with this is not border growth but rapid civic progression (and a very early PP). At this point, some math comes into consideration that might favor going Monument - but given that the expansions provided us with more and more Culture sources, it's highly doubtful.
     
  12. MrRadar

    MrRadar Emperor

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    Depending on the neighbours, they can be handled by diplomacy. If there is more than one, chances are that they'll distract each other. If a neighbour does attack, warriors first will help you to hold better, and slingers a bit later will help to turn the tide. On the whole, I find such case of extreme urgency rather rare.

    I did say "If there are three improvable tiles".

    A scout can block and deflect a barb scout. It helps you to pick up villages and meet other civs and find CSs for PP, also uncover terrain. The earlier you start, the better idea you have what you're facing.
    I did qualify Monument start. And if built, it does speed up your border expansion, if there are valuable tiles around. Buying land takes lots of money. Also, you reach early civics so much faster.

    Thankfully in Civ6 there isn't really some best initial build order, as every start should be considered as a case apart. There is no single recipe for all starts. By invariably going with slingers first you're limiting your options. And I still do think that to build them first usually is a bad habit.
     
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  13. fantsu

    fantsu Prince

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    Building wonders. Never do it.
    Pyramids you can go for if you have desert tile to fill, sure.

    Building anything in a city you dont actually need, just focus on those settlers and builders, or troops if you need them.

    Trying to micro the builders and trade routes. You have to count some turns if you want that snowball running hard. When you settle, you should have builder ready some work, same goes for early trade routes, those roads can mean so much moving stuff around. Same goes for railroads to key locations later on in some degree.

    Using the policy cards. Dont buy land without that discount. Dont upgrade troops without that discount. Dont build those 'mids without some extra policies. Just wait. Check out when you get the next cards and do it then. Some "emergencies" might change this, like denying your neighbors scout getting behind you when bying tiles or upgrading in case of surprise attack, but mostly, dont do it.

    Speaking about snowball... use your resources. AI sitting on top of mound of gold? Sell those votes, sell those extra luxuries, get nice gpt going on so you can afford a war, or buying land or buildings. The sooner you get stuff done, the more you are ahead.
     
  14. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    :thumbsup: that’s just what I want. Easy to defend and kill his troops, then take his property. Even peacefully, it’s the only way to get that very useful defensive tactics Inspiration as well as great gold for suing for peace.
    Bait your neighbour and they will build troops not campus.
    40 for the archer and 33 for the warrior with agoge and you have the gold for something more useful.
    The builder gets you to agoge while your scout holds em off.

    I get the sling start but do not tell me it is defensive. A warrior is better defensively. The sling/AH start is to try for horsemen and fall back on archers. There is no right or wrong the is risk/safety/aggression/efficiency in the mix. How you measure these decides on your start. And that is no big deal, there is no right or wrong.
     
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  15. CrabHelmet

    CrabHelmet King

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    @Victoria I don't mean the Slinger start is defensive - I mean that it fills a dual role. It keeps off barbs and defends against early attacks then as soon as you hit Archery it transitions it offensive, supplemented later by Horsemen. It's doing two things really well. The other poster was suggesting a Monument opening! That does basically nothing... and opening Builder is a complete waste. This isn't 4th pick Builder, it's literally opening Builder. Any tiles worth working you can barely even upgrade! I can only understand that on starts with e.g. two immediately adjacent Sheep and you go Animal Husbandry and gamble on a Pasture reveal, but that's a small selection of starts.
     
  16. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    As others have said Scout first is a strong start (can't speak for Deity), knowledge is power - knowing where the AIs and City States are, getting that first meeting bonus etc etc. My default is consider Scout first and I need to have a strong reason not to go that way.
     
  17. Mr Jon of Cheam

    Mr Jon of Cheam Prince

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    The two rookie mistakes I make every flipping time are forgetting to check policy cards after finishing a civic, and accidently hard researching techs/civics when I am en route to getting the eureka/inspiration.
     
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  18. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    slingers are rubbish, the have no ZOC so cannot block barb scouts, nor can they kill them unless you know the knack of doing so, do you? Regardless it’s not guaranteed. I opened a slinger a few months ago, was on 54% health and though a barb scout on 2 health could not hurt me.... sadly a slinger with a combat value of 0 is a guaranteed death. They are slow and weak. Slinger is a pure agressive opening risking an early attack much more than a defensive scout does (how I use em early) you get it 1 turn earlier than a sling and it can ZOC, kill barb scouts and both body block enemy better and lure barbs away. An entrenched scout on a rough hill without a river is 24vs20 so you can even kill warriors on the defensive. A slinger is about attack opportunities and deity archer rushes are a fail, even horse rushes can fail now.
    Tell that to @Lily_Lancer and other great players. I’ll open builder if things are right for it.
    Getting an early settler is really strong but settle that city and get 2-3 production and you will be glad when you have a builder to hand.

    you said your sling was not defensive then said it can stop barbs in a duel role, my experience is it runs and hides because it is rubbish. What you are doing is gambling on avoiding an early attack so you can be more offensive. Nothing wrong with that as long as you are willing to take that risk.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2020
  19. tiamats4esgares

    tiamats4esgares Warlord

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    The main rookie mistake I see other people make (that I rarely do myself, but sometimes accidentally) is not spend their gold, especially in the early game when there's not much you can buy with it. Gold is a resource, just like food, production, science, and culture. But unlike those resources, it's a resource that you can spend any time you want to, on anything you want. Letting it sit there and do nothing is on opportunity you have missed to get a step ahead. The best thing to spend gold on is cheap things, and early, most of the things you can buy are cheap (besides Great People, and I'd also probably call Settlers not cheap). Why? Because then you can let your advantage go up in small increments, rather than one big one at once. You can also adapt to what is more important to do.

    Early game, I spend most of my gold on builders and buying tiles, but will sometimes buy other things as well such as monuments or traders. If someone goes to war with me, I'll probably buy a military unit or two to help defend. If you were to waste production in a city building a builder, then you delay building other stuff that is too expensive to buy or even things that can't be bought (like districts). But if you buy builders with gold, you can chose the city that needs the builder the most at the time and build it there. Once you recruit Liang, you can move her around from city to city, buying a builder or 2 at each city before moving her again.

    By extension, strategic resources and diplomatic favor can also be sold for gold and used in the same way. Piling them up too much when you don't intend to use them for their actual purpose is also a waste. Furthermore, strategic resources tend to go down in price as the game draws on. A civilization that may pay you 7 gold per horse this turn might decide next turn that your whole stack of 50 is worth only 1 gold.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    As many threads tend to do, this topic has degraded into a "what to build first" debate. Just because I disagree with SOOOOO many people here, I'll give my two cents for what it's worth (though I've done this before, and I don't think anyone cares anyway, but meh).

    Keep in mind that what you build is always determined on map type, civilization, difficulty level, victory condition you are planning (if any), and the situation of the individual game, as well as individual play style.

    You should almost never build a monument. The other options help more. Getting to the next civic isn't as important as you think, because by doing so you're likely to waste a done of culture that you could have got for free through an inspiration.

    Builders are also something you should basically never buy first. It's extremely rare you'll be able to use all 3 of their charges right off the bat and they'll be sitting around doing nothing.

    One of the other 3 options should be chosen because you need to explore as well as help defend.

    Scouts are good at exploring faster, but as others pointed out, it never seems to matter to me. I don't meet city-states faster and rarely get any more goody huts than if I'd have built a slinger or warrior instead. Furthermore, if you need to defend against barbarians or another player, scouts are basically useless. However, for a civilization like the Cree that has a UU scout, then that's a different story. But generally speaking I wouldn't go for scout first.

    I tend to go for a slinger first. They can be upgraded to archers for a small amount of gold if need be, and can also help trigger the eureka. They're also cheaper than warriors, thus you can get to your next thing quicker. Any civ with UU slingers or archers should definitely start slinger.

    Other civs with UU's early like the Aztecs should go with that as well, otherwise, I generally don't advise the warrior start. Maybe if you've already seen barbarian horses? That's about it.

    Another unique case is the Maori, who start off with a size 2 city AND a builder. Yet another reason why the builder shouldn't be built first. In fact, that builder can even help explore, especially in the ocean which is relatively safe this early in the game. I almost always start with a settler playing as the Maori. Also keep in mind I tend to play island maps (like small contients) or even cheat with Terra (hehe) so I don't have to worry as much about an army.

    When not playing as the Maori, I almost always go for a settler as my 2nd thing. It helps me place an aggressive city in a good suitable location before my neighbor gets to it, and it helps trigger the inspiration for Early Empire. After building the settler, I generally go for defense if I need it or a district if I don't (usually Campus or Holy Site). My 2nd city will usually build a granary first, if available, or if not then likely a builder or trader. I also usually go for the pantheon that grants a free settler so I may also get a 3rd city before Early Empire.

    EDIT:

    Sometimes you'll be able to build 2 things before your city hits size 2 because you get an area with great production to start, but not good food (or you just chose not to use it). I had that in my current game (as Nubia) so I built a slinger AND a scout before my city hit size 2 and then I got a settler. I also got the pantheon for a free settler but when I had only 3 cities and waiting for Early Empire, trying to build a campus and 2 granaries, I had war declared on me so all production changed to archers (I rushed the tech, even without the eureka, because Nubia). So, as you see, game conditions can change what my "normal" build order is. It's all about your current game. My campus got delayed, but I won the war and then built my campus after. I even took one of their cities before finally agreeing to a lucrative peace treaty.
     
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  20. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Quite the opposite, you just clearly have not used them defensively or do not know how to use them defensively. Their ZOC alone makes them more useful than a slinger, let alone double the Defense value. They bait beautifully as they are a primary target (unless you have slings in which case they are the primary target)
    So many nuances and such a more thoughtful early game once you know how.

    Slings are useless in comparison to scouts, hell they cannot even run away well. A barb horseman will eat a slinger, but not a scout... although those hose archers in support are an issue just like barb archers are.
     

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