ROTQM13: Rolling Over The Quintet's Magic

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Ozbenno, Mar 17, 2022.

  1. Tinadafish

    Tinadafish Chieftain

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    3-5 axemen are better than 1 crusader, but 3 upgraded crusaders are probably going to end up better than 9-15 axemen that get killed in their 1st or 2nd battle, we're going to need to save up gold to afford teching up in the future though. We probably made an error never researching construction, I just realised we have no siege capabilities at all right now, the best we have is Valin hopefully getting blitz soon, which still requires researching warfare.
     
  2. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    In the long term absolutely. But I just don't think we have the time to wait that long. And the way I play it heroes do all the killing anyway. The rest of the army is just chaff that exists to serve as a backstop. In other words something to slow the enemy down, guard cities (with def bonuses) and stand in the same tile as our hero so that if the enemy stack tries to all fall on him there is something else to die instead. Obviously that strategy is not viable in the long term and it won't help us if we are attacked from two directions at once.

    But right now we only have the one direction to defend from as the AI seems to have all decided to gang up there and we have a lot of stacks that we need to clean up. And our hero does not have blitz yet which is slowing things down. So I figure that's the best strategy to use in this emergency and after that what ever survives can be reinforced with better units.

    That's my logic anyway.
     
  3. King Bulrush

    King Bulrush Warlord

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    I agree with your judgement seeing as how this is an emergency. This is probably the best strategy at the moment.
    In the long run however this is destroying our research and we do need good shock troops to hold the line.
    Crusaders are disciple units so we can upgrade them from Acolytes (we need temples to build them). I haven't yet done the calculations on what it would cost us.
    Also, remember that once we get Donal Lugh he can use his recruit ability (in a large city with lots of militayr buildings, ideally) to quickly raise an army at no cost. If the Sheaim keep sending troops our way he can go to the frontline, kill an pyre zombie and regain his ability to recruit some more. This way ce can maybe hold the line while we resume building up our infrastructure and research again.

    By the way: does anyone know what we can do with the seven pines in an AW game?
     
  4. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    Could our capital do the job? IIRC it has good access to food resources so it can grow back quickly. And it has good production buildings as well.

    Also, there is a free crusader that spawned up in the north western city that we took from the barbarians. If we need to we can ship him down south.
     
  5. King Bulrush

    King Bulrush Warlord

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    Recruiting, if I remember correctly, doesn't actually consume population. It's not like drafting. It's just that the number of units that can be recruited depends on the size of the city where you do it, and their type depends on what that city can build normally.

    Crusaders may spawn automatically when order spreads to a city (if you have the tech, otherwise an Acolyte will spawn). This is why a good idea for an expanding empire that uses order is to pump out confessors in the core and send them to found temples of the order in newly built/conquered cities: you loose the confessor but if the faith did not exist in the city previously you can gain a crusader instead.
     
  6. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    My bad. I've been playing far too many games with the Calabim lately.

    Also, FOL + Guardian of Nature + Calabim is strait up OP. Ancient forests everywhere for +3 food per tile AND basically unlimited :) even as you feed off the population for XP.
     
  7. King Bulrush

    King Bulrush Warlord

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    One more thing: I second the ideea of going into crusade for a short stint of 10 turns. We are spiritual and can switch civics at will so we should take advantage of that. Maybe also try some others like Theocracy, Conquest, or other militayr boosting ones while we are at it.
    On the one hand, it may not look usefull since we can't build demagogues and in the long run it cripples the development of our cities.
    But on the other hand, my understanding is that right now we are focusing on building units anyway. And while we are in crusade we can build Flagbearers, which can buff other units. Which is very neat because Flagbearers, unlike Demagogues, do not desert when the crusade is over, so we can quickly build a few of them and keep them around for the rest of the game.
    And I would not worry about staying locked in Crusade. I have never tested this in an AW game but as a long time Bannor player I can tell you that this is not how it works in the normal game. War does not lock you in Crusade. It is Crusade that locks you into war normally (meaning that you can, and have to, switch out of it before making peace).
     
  8. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    Oh, ok than. I don't usually play with the Bannor so I got it backwards.
     
  9. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    I decided against Crusade for now as we're hopefully due a Prophet in 28 turns, wait until after this I reckon.

    I upped the research to 50% so we're still operating at a small profit but we could research Warfare and I set path to Military Strategy to get Blitz.



    There is a steady stream of troops heading to Delouc and Valin is picking them off one by one, I snuck some archers through to defend. We're in no real trouble here as long as they stay where they are. If they head west, we would need to get Valin to follow.



    The tricksy elves have snuck a small stack down south. We should easily be able to defend against them but they might pillage the area as Valin is the only real offense we have against them.

    Donal Lugh is about 7 turns away, which should help. Only military built were warriors in these turns. Capital can build Heroic Epic and then military after that, crusaders and confessors a priority I think.
     

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  10. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Ozbenno >> just played
    King Bulrush >> UP NOW
    pholkhero >> On Deck
    Tinadafish
    PPQ Purple
     
  11. King Bulrush

    King Bulrush Warlord

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    Ok, so I played my turns now.
    - In the southeast the Amurites and Balseraphs continued to ineffectivey besiege Deluoc. All their attacks were beaten off without losses. Valin killed Bambur. And he's also a bounty hunter now so we get a small amount of money every time he wins. Warfare finished researching after that so his next promotion can be Blitz like you guys wanted. Towards the end of my reign the enemy finally decided to move towards Ventry but it's too late for them as we finally started to assemble a second army there.

    - In the southwest the Svartalfar raiding party turned out to be a far greater threat than anticipated thanks to their commando trait. I wasn't able to intercept them before they reached our road network, after which they were able to attack our weak points, killed a few units, pillaged our mine and I am pretty sure they would have taken a city if I hadn't distracted them with an unprotected worker. At the last moment they were eaten by some of our Bears which I rushed south as reinforcements, so... crisis averted for now.
    Just watch out for more raids coming from the southwest. We do have some workers right now rebuilding the copper mine and they will need to be protected if more enemies show up in that area.
    - Donal Lugh was built in the capitol and immediately used his recruit ability, and the result was... this:confused::confused:
    upload_2022-5-23_1-43-43.png

    I guess we will have to go on a hunt then...

    - Research: After Warfare I quickly researched Masonry too (so now we can build walls if needed). After that I decided to go for Poisons. It's a bit expensive (29 turns) so I'm not sure how feasible it is. You can cancel it if you want. But the reason I choose it is so that we can build asassins. I think that we have a good chance of getting the Areon's choosen unit and this would really help us both now and in the long run. And we do have some hunters that we can upgrade into asassins anyway...

    And that's it from me for the moment.
     

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  12. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    I suggest we rush those recruits down to plug up the two southern chokepoints. 2x hunter +2x archer should be decent enough once fortified.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2022
  13. King Bulrush

    King Bulrush Warlord

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    I want to write a few more lines about long term strategy and about why I keep suggesting that we assign above average priority to researching techs on the recon unitl line, even if it may seem a bit counterintuitive for us to focus on them:

    Due to our self-imposed limitations, we will go into the endgame with between 4 and 8 level IV units than we would normally have (and than our rivals will have). Therefore we need co compensate somehow. Fortunately, there are 3 "special" world units that are attainable with a bit of luck, and which require us to research something on the recon line.

    - first, in the short run, is the already mentioned Aeron's choosen, which is a promotion granted to the first asassin to reach level 5. I think it is feasible to get that as the AI isn't very skilled in using asassins. In the late game this asassin can be upgraded to a Marksman for what is essentially a walking cheat code.

    - second, in the medium term, there is the Baron Duin (and his werewolves) at feral bond. It's the only unit on my list that can be built directly, as long as we are first to that tech. I am thinking to use the bears to our north as "training material" for the first werewolves (which is why please don't overhunt bears and don't destroy their lairs - we want a healthy population of them)

    - third, in the long run, is the possibility to caputre Acheron with a Beastmaster. It's very complicated to do but very fun to use if we manage to capture him alive. We are lucky that he seems to have spawned reasonably close so we have a slight chance to keep him out of the hands of the AI.

    Of course, the first priority is survival, but if we manage to catch our breath it may be worth to think about how we want our army to look like in the endgame.
     
  14. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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  15. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Assassin's are pretty useful, as mages/adepts will generally be the weakest units coming against us and we can thin them out easily.

    I'd maybe head towards getting Sphener rather than the Baron as a first course of action. We should also keep an eye on Valin and when he gets to level 15, rescue Brigit for another hero.

    I've captured Acheron before but IIRC, he was unable to move out of his city???
     
  16. King Bulrush

    King Bulrush Warlord

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    I have captured Acheron several times and I had no problems moving him around. He is only immobile when he is under Barbarian control. He is a pretty fun unit to have (and in our case, would be the only unit capable of indirect fire, since we won't use mages).

    Of course, capturing Acheron will be easier said than done. We will need at least one Beastmaster with "subdue beasts". And in support, artilery to weaken him. And also some shadows to kill his disciples.
    Let's hope that we can make it that far into the game.
     
  17. Tinadafish

    Tinadafish Chieftain

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    We'd probably have been able to win 3 times over by the time we get to that point I don't anticipate any of the AI making a stronger force
     
  18. pholkhero

    pholkhero Deviant Mind

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    Sorry all, RL had me out of pocket for a couple days.

    Looks like we've got a lot going on, and to be honest, besides surviving (which I'm fairly ok at), what's the next steps?
    Got it.

    Should I head for Poisons after Masonry after all, or something else? What about Sphener vs Baron??
     
  19. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Maybe Construction before Poisons. Sphener and the Baron won't be available for a while.
     
  20. PPQ_Purple

    PPQ_Purple Techpriest Engineer

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    I agree on construction. Ideally we should go warfare for blitz, than construction and than either for Sphener or the baron what ever is quickest. That way we can get those castles up ASAP to boost our defensive lines and give them more time to grow until the next attack.
     

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