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(RT) Embrace the Paean

Discussion in 'CivBE - Strategy & Tips' started by Olodune, Oct 17, 2015.

  1. Olodune

    Olodune Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    I think Paeans are strong. So much so that they tip the balance from academy spam to specialist economy as the dominant strategy due to Biology being their required technology.

    Edit: Added the Paean civilopedia entry:
    Spoiler :




    In my attempt to show the silliness of machine assisted free will, fully 40 health is from Paean spam. They average about 5 effective health each, and so you're looking at a conversion rate of ~(130/30)/5 = 0.86 hammers per turn per health. If you win fast enough the 30 turn duration isn't an issue, at which point they are more efficient than a post quest Pharmalab. Of all the new easy to acquire +health, these may be the lowest of the low hanging fruit.

    Nearly every city has its own Paean:

    Spoiler :


     
  2. gvblake22

    gvblake22 Chieftain

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    Sorry for my ignorance, but could someone describe the strategy/benefit of spamming academies? I see a lot of people comparing things to academy spam and I just don't know how/why it's done.
     
  3. Skybeach88

    Skybeach88 Chieftain

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    I was looking at peaens during a recent game. Though decided against them since i managed to get 80 health with polystrala by going prosp\industry. Im currently teying to ICS cities out just to bring my health down to a reasonable level haha
     
  4. Olodune

    Olodune Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    Academies are one of the basic sources of science. They start by adding +2 science to nearly any tile (@2 energy maintenance and the cost of another improvement - usually a farm). This goes up to +4 science (+1 culture) later in the game.

    This game, for instance, has about 80% of my tiles converted into academies (the game I posted about above has 0):
    Spoiler :




    I usually go for Cognition (their enabling tech) after the first ring is basically complete, then pick up Artificial Intelligence very soon after. In RT the build time was drastically increased -> makes worker speed boosts more valuable. There is an artifact unlockable +50% boost that is worth looking for. Eventually you'll want the last +science boost deep in the knowledge tree. Unlike specialist scientists there are no hard limits to how many you can build - just watch your energy surplus ;)

    Since science (and then production + patience) are what win Affinity victories this can work well. Getting cities with a high enough food surplus is usually good before working too many academies - similar to specialists. This is usually from internal trade routes, not Vertical Farming, I think.

    Yep. Health is only an issue in the early/mid game. After that you can build as many cities as you want - but they cost science and culture in the short term as they develop. I think you can ICS the whole map and be massively positive health in the late game, so good luck :lol:
     
  5. Lucius_

    Lucius_ Chieftain

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    I started using these in my domination games. They pretty much negate the health swings from conquering cities rapidly, particularly if a conquered city is large with few health from buildings.

    Also this tech plays really nice with Purity/supremacy hybrid domination. I research biology while building the institute then use the free tech to pop Golems.

    I haven't used these in a non-domination game though. The fact this isn't an affinity tech, always turns me off of going that route. Vertical farming is there as well though. Maybe I'll try that route with AU when I get around to playing him.
     
  6. GAGA Extrem

    GAGA Extrem Chieftain

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    I am not sure if the Paean is really *that* OP. It's certainly too good to be without a resource requirement (considering that maxed out health effects are better than all other satellite effects), but that's pretty much it.

    The tech doesn't have the greatest position in the tech web, so it's usually a detour to unlock them. If you rush it, you can't really make full use of the effect because you need quite a bit of pop. The issue is probably more about ocean cities getting too little unhealth.
     
  7. Promethian

    Promethian Chieftain

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    I know I saw a way to enable satellites to overlap coverage a bit. I think it was one of the artifact rewards. Could milk sat outputs nicely with it and Paean is a good choice with Solar Collectors not far away and both are pretty close to Cognition. Add the agreement from Kozlov and well...
     
  8. Olodune

    Olodune Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    I mostly agree; there are certainly more egregious balance issues currently. Internal Trade, etc. I think the tech position is quite good though. Vertical Farming is solid, but your suggested Biowell spamming might be better for specialist economies (because of the accessible extra culture). Vert Farms + Paeans leave a very nice energy surplus though. The game is so swingy currently it is very hard to compare between games to see what works well. My two fastest games had an early Vertical Farming that caused nice snowballing - but they also had either MAFW or QP. Very small sample size too.
     
  9. Olodune

    Olodune Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    I tried to play another game with early Paeans and Vertical Farming to see how it went. So I chose the "neutral faction leader", Rejinaldo. As usual with RT, there is so much random broken stuff in here that I'm not sure how to compare. Yet again I found Machine-Assisted Free Will (6/9 games now), and just added Quantum Politics so the game will continue to accelerate. Hutama makes the game crazy even when he's not our chosen faction.

    Anyways, perhaps the best thing about Paean/VF openings is how easily they scale to fast games compared to other options.

    t100 South America, certainly feels strong at this point (7th city just off the screen for 67 total pop).
    Spoiler :




    I'll switch to full science in 10-15 turns or so (Institutes and Xenonurseries are just going up now for Scientist Slots). MF construction should begin around turn 130. Manufactories are just getting started on the few land tiles by Cidadela.
     
  10. Olodune

    Olodune Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    This Rejinaldo game did accelerate about as quickly as I thought it might.

    Starting on the Mind Flower (t121 - 2 turns earlier than my 145 Emancipation VC above). Somewhat low production means a slightly longer than usual build (but it won't be 18 turns :) )

    Edit: Also note the current research item: think Water Refineries might have been good earlier here? Just a bit. :lol:
    Spoiler :




    MF Compete (t133, also 2 turns earlier than the above)
    Spoiler :




    So I am still convinced that Paean/VF is a good beeline :p It is doing better than my academy games so far, but that could just be random variability. Certainly primordial biome maps seem very strong.

    Of course, I don't actually want to wait 30 nonsensical turns to finish a 7 city harmony game (with full Xeno Sanc + Mind Stem builds complete). I am way ahead of the AIs - domination would be faster at this point. I'd love a re-balance of the affinity victory paths :)


    Also:

    Color blindness challenges?
    Spoiler :




    Note the Chungsu sub in the far left, above. ;)

    Occasionally I get a "confrontation" message like this. It doesn't seem to have any gameplay impact at all - just the AI being chatty?

    Spoiler :


     
  11. Callonia

    Callonia Chieftain

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    Isn't the catch of PAEAN satellites that they can be shot down and requires renewal every 30 turns? Maintenance intensive task.. when compared to safe health confering buildings that can be guarded inside cities. And would they consume unit supply points?
     
  12. Olodune

    Olodune Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    I find the duration isn't much of a problem in practice. The growth and science phases of RT are so fast that 30 turns isn't a huge deal. Between Biology and Victory-Wonder construction start I only replace 1-3. After that the pressure is off. (As Gaga Extrem mentioned, spamming Paeans as soon as they are unlocked is unlikely as they only increase health up to the local city cap - so just the capital and first expand initially).

    Satellites do indeed use supply. I find myself disbanding some early Solar Collectors for exactly this reason. By the time Paeans are available this should be less of a problem - unless you are pushing for domination, or have 20+ explorers (which may even be correct now :lol: ).

    The only satellites I've ever had shot down are offensive ones placed too close to enemy cities.
     
  13. sugerdady87

    sugerdady87 Chieftain

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    Paean + superfarming is better for a SE approach than biowells in my opinion.
     
  14. NukeAJS

    NukeAJS Chieftain

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    Not saying paean isn't a good satellite; however, there's an opportunity cost for spamming them instead of other kinds of satellites (weather controllers, solar collectors, holomatrixes, and orbital fabricators come to mind).

    By using paeans, you can't (or severely limit) the use of other satellites. Some of those satellites give unique or hard to find benefits whereas health is one of the most common yields in the game.
     
  15. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    Well, the difference is that it comes much earlier than others you mentioned
     
  16. sugerdady87

    sugerdady87 Chieftain

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    Also, you don't necessarily have to spam them. 2-4 works for me most of the time. And with the smart grid agreement, you won't necessarily need solar sats anymore.
     
  17. MAMoob

    MAMoob Chieftain

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    The main issue for me is that city health can not exceed its pop, so if you rush them (I can get them like t60 even if I go for computing first), your city health is still mostly covered by upgraded clinic and pharmlab, so you get like 2-3 health per sat at best, which is not that much. Of course you can skip building these, but they are quite cheap production wise and permanent. Later paeans can be useful but then again you can just use gene garden instead which is a pretty nice building in any case. Vertical farming is pretty nice though, and unlike biowells leaves you with a nice energy surplus. I think vertical farming is actually a bigger advantage than the paeans if going for biology.
     
  18. Olodune

    Olodune Chieftain GOTM Staff

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    Unless you are playing someone with broken early growth (Hutama), I agree that early Biology should lead to vertical farming. Paeans are a significant secondary advantage of that tech path. There are certainly other sources of heath, but Paeans are fairly efficient. Unlike Pharmalabs and Gene Gardens, a high production city can build one for a high growth city so that the growth city can focus on other things.

    In terms of competition from other satellites -> I don't find myself picking up any others that early. Maybe there is an efficient way to go to early Climate Control? That could be interesting.
     
  19. Callonia

    Callonia Chieftain

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    I see thanks.... Generally I only go for prosperity virtue tree then branch out into industry and knowledge so I've never seen the need for Paean satellites.
     

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