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RTW realism

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Road to War' started by MajorWinters, Dec 7, 2008.

  1. MajorWinters

    MajorWinters Chieftain

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    I am working to make this mod completely realistic but am having a very hard time. Is there anyone out there who is good with modding? I would really like your help. What i want to do is to change the unit strength to make it historically correct, add a few new units, and changet the map some to make it more realistic. I can provide all the needed information, i just don't know how to do it. So anybody who can help please post and help.
    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. VeteranLurker

    VeteranLurker Chieftain

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    At times it does seem like new-modders (like me) are wandering in the wilderness. There are some very helpful threads in the Creation and Customization main link. There are some specific suggestions about editors (Notepad++) and a link to the CIV Wiki for what the XML files do (incomplete, unfortunately): http://civ4.wikidot.com/xml-files.

    Also, there is a thread here in the RTW folder about a very-recent attempt to update unit strengths.
     
  3. MajorWinters

    MajorWinters Chieftain

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    I have looked at tutorials and the like but it all might as well be written in martian when i read it. I don't understand any of the technical computer terms and words. I have tryed to use them and failed dismally. So like i said i need someone who can do all this and who would be willing to help. I have ben told that what i want to do isn't hard for someone who knows what they are doing (not me obviously) so if that is an incentive to anybody out there to help pls do so. There is some stuff i can do like change unit strengths but it is very hard for me to actually find each line of code for each unit, from what i have heard from reading other forum topics it is supposedly very easy and quick (is there something i'm missing?). However that is about all i can do.
     
  4. kiwitt

    kiwitt Road to War Modder

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  5. ZooMan2

    ZooMan2 Chieftain

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    Well no promisses on delivery (meaning how long it would take to put something together) but why don't you put your ideas in this thread and we'll work through what makes sense and see where we get. I did a lot of customization to RtW when I was doing 1.2 beta testing and changes to units and maps are not a problem ... making the AI play better is what I'd really like to do but I'm not there yet. In the end what I'd like would be both realistic and playable. As it is, the mod is a lot of fun because it is so extensive and there is so much too it.:)

    That said, it is still not perfect and the great thing about Civ is if you want to change it, you can.:D

    My suggestion would be to agree which scenario we're going to work on first and then list all of the changes you had in mind and then I'll see what I can do.:)

    And anyone else that would like to add their $0.02 is welcome to do so too - this could be a lot of fun.:king:

    What do you think?:)
     
  6. MajorWinters

    MajorWinters Chieftain

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    The only scenerio i want to change is the Whole world 1936 scenerio, i would like to make the unit stats more realistic (like super powered russian infantry is SO unrealistic) change the map a little, work on the AI (probably impossible) and I wanted to look into the use of events such as the spanish revolution in the open play mode of the game. Also for the open play i want to not let china use american equipment use the Americans offer it to the chinese. I will post unit changes below periodically.
    NOTE THESE ARE ONLY THE STRENGTHS NOT SPECIALS STATS, I WOULD LIKE TO CHANGE SOME OF THOSE TOO, Some of these might need to be changed I haven't checked them in a while
    units are shown in order that they appear in the Civlopedia
    A6M Zero Fighter- 25
    Advanced Infantry- 20
    American Advanced Infantry- 24
    American Early Infantry- 12
    American Improved Infantry- 18
    Amiot 143- 12
    Amiot 340- 10
    Amiot 354-15
    Anti-Tank Gun-5
    Anti-Air Gun-10
    Ar 234 Jet Bomber-25
    Ar 234 Jet Bomber-25
    Artillery-12
    B-17 Flying Fortress-20
    B-17 Flying Fortress-20
    B-18 Bolo-10
    B-29 Superfortress-30
    Ba.88 Bomber-3
    Bataille B1-bis Tanks-28
    Bomber-5
    Breguet 693-20
    Caproni Campini NI-28
    Cavalry- 8
    Chinese Adv. Inf.-16
    Chinese early Inf.-10
    Chinese Imp. Inf.-13
    Common Wealth Adv. Inf.-20
    Common Wealth early Inf.-12
    Common Wealth Imp. Inf.- 17
    Crusader 3 Tank- 19
    Curtiss Hawk 75- 14
    Dewoitine D.520 Fighter- 18
    FCM Char 2C Tank- 30
    FR Fireball-30
    Fiat CR-42 Fighter- 19
    Fiat G.55 Fighter- 25
    Fighter- 12
    Focke FW190-27
    French Adv. Inf.- 16
    French early Inf.- 10

    NOT COMPLETE YET, STILL WORKING
    Edit:i probably should have put this in before, these are the strengths as they are in RTW:UE, once i have all them up then anyone who wants to help and I will go through and make changes that are going to put in to modding.
     
  7. ZooMan2

    ZooMan2 Chieftain

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    OK - I'll start with that scenario - in fact it is the one I am currently play testing. And you're right about the Soviets but I think the Chinese are also (a) over strength and (b) that there are too many of them - 111 infantry to start the game compared to ~25 for Japan!

    Anyway, I'll look at all of the stats and start working on a revised scenario.

    Btw - changing the AI is beyond my skill set at this point although I think we'd all like a more agressive and smarter AI for RtW. Dale has made several comments to that effect in other posts.

    Don't know when I'll have something ready to upload and test but will post an update when I have an idea.

    Cheers!:)
     
  8. MajorWinters

    MajorWinters Chieftain

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    Thank you, really, i have no ability to do most of what i want to do. So i guess for now we'll start with unit strengths and then move on form there, i'll tell a friend of mine to start posting on this thread, see what he thinks.
    If you think we should start somewhere elso or something post and i'll see what i can do.
     
  9. Dale

    Dale Chieftain

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    At the start of the 2nd Sino-Jap war the Chinese had ~150 divisions whilst the IJA only had 35 in China. That's why the disparity in numbers. :)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War
     
  10. Omathaar

    Omathaar Chieftain

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    This thread sounds really cool! I've been messing with the global scenario tons for a while, and I've made lots of my own changes.

    I think we can make this very, very realistic, but I've got one caveat: My philosophy for game realism is that the results should be realistic, so you have a good simulation of reality, but the components that cause those results don't have to be, because it's just a simulation. It's the effects we care about. So I have no problem with overpowered or underpowered units if their power level leads to realistic results. For instance, I've made China's units ridiculously strong at city defense but weak otherwise. Unrealistic? Technically. But this ends up simulating real history really well. The Japanese advance into China starts quick, then it's slowed, then becomes a stalemate, just like in real life. Japan has a hard time pushing farther into China, but China has no hope of retaking lost territory. And if a human player plays Japan, then you have to try to overcome the same kinds of adverse conditions Japan had to overcome; how do you break the stalemate? Uh, does that make sense?

    I'm a nut for the global scenario too, I haven't played any of the others in forever. Uh, here's a list of some of the changes I've made:

    Spoiler :


    All these changes are made with the intention of Events being on. If I want to backstab an ally, I just go into WorldBuilder to declare war on them. I'd love if we can make Open Play work, but then again, I like that you can't declare war until the Events say to; the Events simulate the internal affairs that kept war from being so feasible until it started, and I don't know how to simulate those factors otherwise. But we'll see, right? Anyway, here's my changes:

    Economic Stuff:
    - The techs you're supposed to have by 1939 (according to the 1939 scenarios) are cheaper, but the later techs are more expensive, so you have to work hard to reach the end of the tech tree
    - Upped the upkeep cost of large empires (I think this was a crucially realistic change!)
    - Made the Civics have more different effects that I think are more realistic (I can give details if you want)
    - Every Civ has "International Ties" which is sorta like the Internet; it gives you any tech known by any 5 known civs. This helps lots for minor nations, and does it in a realistic way. And there are more allies than axis, so if the allies get ahead in research, it'll filter down to the other nations, but if the axis get ahead, and take out some of the allies, there'll never be 5 civs who know the new techs, only the few axis, so the smaller nations won't get jack
    - "Goods Factory" is now called "Industrialization," and it represents the long years of industrialization that Europe has and that colonies don't have, so the small European cities are more productive than the populous colonial cities in Africa and such. Realistically, it's not population that matters so much as industrialization. This building can be built, but it takes decades, and costs about $200,000 to hurry (but I still love industrializing Africa once I'm powerful enough to afford it). Industrialization allows 2 Engineers, enables building of the factories, allows training of artillery and anti-tank weapons, gives +100% production with power, and allows building of "Infrastructure." The +100% production bonus means that cities without Industrialization have a huge but realistic disadvantage
    - "Coal Plant" is now "Infrastructure," since the coal plant didn't do much of anything in RtW UE. It provides power, so enabling the +100% production bonus from Industrialization, and it also gives +200% Espionage. Infrastructure can be destroyed by spies and bombers, halving a city's production for a while until the Infrastructure is rebuilt (which doesn't take too long). This makes for more of an incentive to bomb enemy infrastructure if their lands are too strong to invade yet
    - This is a huge change: in normal Civ, economic and military might depends largely on a country's size, but that's not really realistic. Size in history was typically a result of might, not its cause. Economic, political, and especially sociocultural aspects should have a huge effect on a country's might. So to simulate this, I've put in a few World Wonders that make some of the countries way stronger than their poorer neighbors:

    ---- Big Ben: in London, all your cities get +400% production and +200% trade (aka x5 production and x3 trade), and an additional +400% production and 200% trade with power (which you can only have with Infrastructure, which requires Industrialization. So industrialized British cities get total +800% production and +400% trade. With the +100% production from Industrialization, that's a total +900% production. Overall, it's x10 production and x5 trade compared with an unindustrialized minor nation city, or x5 production and x5 trade compared with an industrialized minor nation city. This makes it so places like Turkey or Poland have comparatively small industrial and economic capacities, which in real life would be a result of socio-economic factors, simulated by their lack of these World Wonders. This is a hugely important change to the game, I think!) also, all your units get +4 xp!
    ---- Arc de Triomphe: in Paris, all your cities get +400% production and +200% trade, and an additional +400% production and +200% trade with power, and all your units get +4 xp
    These +400% wonders are not cumulative with one another. So, if you have Big Ben and then liberate the Arc de Triomphe in Paris, you don't get any additional bonus
    ---- Reichstag: in Berlin, all your cities get +400% production and +200% trade, and an additional +400% production and +200% trade with power, and all your units get +4 xp
    ---- Leaning Tower of Pisa: in Rome, all your cities get +400% production and +200% trade, and an additional +400% production and +200% trade with power, and all your units get +4 xp
    ---- Torii: in Tokyo, all your cities get +400% production and +200% trade, and an additional +400% production and +200% trade with power, and all your units get +4 xp

    ---- Le France: in Paris, this is an invisible wonder that doubles your science rate (France really needed that for realism), and gives -1 xp to all your units (just to cancel out Tour Eiffel's xp), but this wonder dies once Paris is captured (so the Germans don't get the unrealistic science bonus, but it no longer cancels out Tour Eiffel for the Germans either...)
    ---- Tour Eiffel: in Paris, gives +1 happy in all cities and +1 xp to all troops. This mainly represents the morale boost for the Germans after the fall of Paris, since it only gives its +1 xp benefit after Paris is captured

    These next wonders are cumulative with each other, and with the above wonders. So, if you already have the Reichstag and then take the Kremlin in Moscow, you do get a hugely significant additional boost!
    ---- Kremlin: in Moscow, all your cities get +100% production and +50% trade, and an additional +100% production and +50% trade with power, and all your units get +1 xp
    ---- Peter and Paul Cathedral: in Leningrad, all your cities get +100% production and +50% trade, and an additional +100% production and +50% trade with power, and all your units get +1 xp
    ---- Volga River: in Stalingrad, all your cities get +100% production and +50% trade, and an additional +100% production and +50% trade with power, and all your units get +1 xp
    This means that, while the fall of Berlin cripples Germany, or the fall of London or Paris cripples Britain or France, Russia can only really be crippled if two or more of its strategic cities fall. This is very, very realistic I think. These three cities, all in west Russia, were the key to everything; if two of them fell, the whole USSR fell. Right? And this means that if Germany takes these cities, then it's gonna pretty much win the whole war
    ---- The Statue of Liberty: in New York, all your cities get +150% production and +75% trade, and an additional +150% production and +75% trade with power, and all your units get +1 xp
    ---- The White House: in Washington, all your cities get +150% production and +75% trade, and an additional +150% production and +75% trade with power, and all your units get +1 xp
    ---- Hollywood: in Los Angeles, all your cities get +100% production and +50% trade, and an additional +100% production and +50% trade with power, and all your units get +1 xp
    ---- Stalin's Purges: in Moscow, Leningrad, and Stalingrad I think. There may be another one in Kiev, don't remember right now. Anyway, in RtW UE, Stalin's military purges (which were a huge factor in the war) were simulated some by Russian Early Infantry being more expensive. But the Russian AI just went and built tanks instead, which were no more expensive than normal :p But these new Wonder purges take a huge bite out of all Russian production for a time, and subtract xp (very realistic; the Russian army was weak and undisciplined as a result of Stalin's paranoia). They're made obsolete by different techs (Improved Weapons, Polymerization, and Airborne Warfare), so Russia gradually wakes up and becomes huge. This means that Russia's strong enough to tackle Germany but have trouble with it at first (like in real life), but weak enough in the years prior that it embarrassingly can't defeat Finland (Yeah, Finland almost never dies in this version! Hooray! Sometimes the dumb Fin AI doesn't defend Oulu, so the Russians sometimes take that, but Finland almost always survives! Finland's survival was largely because of Stalin's purges in real life).
    ---- Chinese Culture Center: Communist Chinese wonder in Yan'aan, to help simulate the Communist Chinese military engine and help them stand against Japan better. Gives +200% production and +100% trade in all cities (if Communist China were to ever get more than 1 city...), and an additional +200% production and +100% trade with power, and all units get +2 xp. Also gives +1500% military unit production
    ---- Chinese Culture Center: Nationalist Chinese wonders in Nanjing and Chongquing (there may be one in Hohhot, but I'm pretty sure there's not). Gives +100% production and +50% trade in all cities, and an additional +10% production and +50% trade with power, and all units get +1 xp. Even tho China has 2 (3?) of these, they're not cumulative with each other. So they're weak, only giving +100%, but if Japan takes Nanjing but not Chongquing, it does nothing, same vice-versa; Japan needs to take both to have an effect!
    ---- Chinese Culture Center: Nationalist Chinese wonder in Lhasa. Gives +200% production and +100% trade in all cities, and an additional +200% production and +100% trade with power, and all units get +3 xp. Deep in Tibet, this represents Chiang's determination to keep fighting, even when pushed into the interior
    ---- The Fall of London: Invisible wonder that can only be built by the Axis, and only in London. Gives +2 happy in all cities, +2 xp to all units, and makes all enemies suffer +100% War Weariness (tho that's still hardly any in this mod, been considering making it more than +100%). This is simulating the great axis morale at the fall of London, and the allied despair. This wonder can only be built after the initial disorder in London is over, of course, thus it's only after the axis is able to hold onto London for that long that the allies really accept the awful reality represented by the building of this wonder

    - Palaces give +2 xp to all troops (just so even the most minor nations can give their units some promotions, even if they're too poor to build barracks)
    - Vichy France has a special "Puppet State Palace" that makes all Vichy cities get +200% production and +100% trade, and an additional +200% production and +100% trade with power, and all its units get +2 xp. This simulates the German troops helping Vichy out, even if the AI Germany doesn't literally help. This is a perfect example of realism only mattering in the results: it doesn't matter if Germany really does send troops to Vichy (and the AI almost never will) all that matters is if the game plays as if Germany had sent troops to Vichy. This +200% bonus helps Vichy sort of resist the allies some, even though it's not as powerful as Big Ben or such

    Military:
    - Reduced unit movement to better fit the scale of global map
    - Reduced aircraft and paradrop range to better fit the scale of global map
    - Reduced artillery range to better fit the scale; only Modern Artillery has 2 range
    - Normal artillery isn't so accurate, Heavy is better, and Modern is best
    - "Searchlights" promotion for AA guns requires Combat I or Drill I, not Barrage
    - AA guns are way cheaper
    - Bitter Winter, and Winter Warfare promotion, both give bigger defense bonuses
    - The Maginot Line is no longer made of bunker units (cause every time, I was able to decimate it with aircraft as Germany), now it's a terrain feature that's completely impassable to the axis, but can be dismantled by axis workers
    - Bunkers (that look mostly like the Maginot bunkers) can be built after Sloped Armor. They suck at city defense, but they rock outside of cities. They're perfect for "Atlantic Wall" sorts of things, and they look sweet lined along your border
    - The Airstrip is a cheap new building, and allows the airlift of 2 units (or 2 paradrops) per turn. It gives no xp bonuses, and is prerequisite for Airforce Base. So if you take a city, you can throw up an airstrip there real quick to launch paradrops and airlifts, which is realistic. It's very unrealistic to have to wait the long time to build a whole Airforce Base before you can launch any paradrops
    - Airforce Bases allow airlift of 4 units instead of 3. Combined with an airstrip, this is a total of 6 airlifts or paradrops per turn. I think that's realistic for an airforce base, any thoughts?
    - A new city, Novgorod, is just south of Leningrad. This is to slow the German advance toward Leningrad (cause Leningrad almost always fell crazy quickly otherwise)
    - I moved Helsinki over a bit. I think it's more realistically placed, and even if not, it helps Finland survive war with Russia
    - Fixed the Russian medium tanks, so they're strength 22 not 30
    - Chinese Early Infantry are crazy cheap (so yes, there will be tons of them), and Chinese Improved Infantry are even cheaper! I'm pretty sure this is quite realistic. These Chinese Infantry are very weak, but they have huge city defensive bonuses. This means China can't take land from Japan, but Japan has a hard time pushing China back, making for the realistic stalemate
    - China relies almost completely on just its basic infantry
    - AI builds more planes!!
    - Every unit at the beginning of the game starts with 2 xp
    - Gave all the British UU's to Canada, Australia, and South Africa
    - Made it so Paratroopers start with 1 move, but the Paradrop promo (lets them move after drop) also gives them move 2 instead of 1
    - Artillery attack can damage but not kill, but bombard can still kill (I'm not sure I like this change, but maybe)

    Cosmetic Stuff:
    - The World Wonders like Big Ben and the Reichstag look sweet :D
    - German Modern Infantry look like the rest of German infantry, just cause they look cool
    - Again, I love the look of Atlantic Wall sorts of things with the bunker units
    - Changed lots of the text (instead of "religion" it's "ideology," instead of "the French empire has been destroyed!!!" it's "the French Nation has been crushed!!!" etc etc)

    Misc:
    - No more permanent Alliances!
    - Vichy (though technically pretending to be neutral) is at war with Allies, so the British try to take some of Vichy's colonies
    - Made difficulty levels harder, but difficulty mostly affects how fast the AI builds troops (5x as fast on deity! London pumps out a battleship every turn, pretty much...). I don't mind the troop inflation; the AI is dumb, that's not gonna change, but if I give them buttloads more troops, it evens things out some. I just remember that, on the harder difficulty levels, one British Battleship doesn't represent the same thing as one of my Battleships. One of mine, perhaps, represents a real ship, while a dozen of theirs represents one real ship, the additional ships making up for stupid moves and such. I'd love it if we could make the AI smarter on harder difficulties, but letting the AI cheat makes for a great simulation too! It's the results that matter, I think, and the troop inflation results in more difficulty.
    - Cities almost never revolt when they're surrounded by rival culture, as long as they have just a couple troops inside
    - Fascist "religion" (ideology) gives +10 espionage per city! This may seem huge, but it makes the axis espionage capacity more realistic
    - Railroads cost $10 to build
    - All units and buildings are more expensive, to fit with the Industrialization building, so cities without Industrialization have a realistic harder time
    - Changed the way nation's names appear on the score list ("Russia" instead of "USSR," "Britain" instead of "United Kingdom," etc. The long names are still used at appropriate times, tho)
    - Germany's long name is now "Third Reich"
    - Changed other countries' names some (e.g., "Philippine Nation" not "Philippine Empire")
    - Great Artists can no longer Culture Bomb!
    - Kiel starts with a Naval Dock
    - Every city starts with an Airstrip (though those Airstrips can be destroyed later in battle)
    - Un-industrialized many cities
    - "Cold War Awareness" tech allows changing of civics (both in Events and Open mode). I figured that if you get to that point, then if Germany wants to become Communist, or America wants to become Fascist, then they can. It's just a fun little thing, really

    Known Issues:
    - Still fine-tuning the balance between Japan and China
    - Planning to fix the Spanish Civil War (I did something accidentally that makes Azana kick Franco's butt every time)
    - I've been meaning to download a cool Mussolini Leaderhead I saw on this site, I just haven't bothered to do it yet
    - I also want to replace some other Leaderheads, like Peter II and Micheal I, just haven't done it yet
    - I'd love it if artillery could damage aircraft in a city, but don't know how to do that yet


    I'm clearly proud of my work :p Dale made a great game for us to take more steps with. You want me to upload this one tho? Maybe it'd help you, if it's the sort of thing you're going for
     
    Dumanios likes this.
  11. Omathaar

    Omathaar Chieftain

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  12. ZooMan2

    ZooMan2 Chieftain

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    Thanks for the link Dale - interesting reading - I love history!:D ... and I'll concede the count:) ... but reality was that the IJA did pretty much whatever it wanted to and the reasons were (a) that the IJA was much better trained and equipped and (b) while there were a lot of Chinese divisions, they were actually not an army so much as a coalition of warlord bands - each supporting their own regional general. They seldom fought the IJA and were used primarily to support the regional generals' power base. Lt. Col. Sliney, a member of the American military mission to China wrote in a memo to Bri. Gen. Magruder that "Japan has generally been able to push forward any place she wanted to. She has stopped mainly because a certain number of troops can safely hold only a certain number of miles of front."

    See chapter 15, "A Hell of a Beating" in Spector's The Eagle Against the Sun for details and references, if you're interested.

    Back to the game, China, with 111 infantry at strength 10 with 2 upgrades is way over powered compared to the IJA infantry also at strength 10 although with 3 upgrades. I was able to easily eliminate the Chinese communists and to push the IJA out of both China and Korea simply by weight of numbers and being willing to take a few losses. I don't know whether I'll be able to hold it or not because the Soviets are pretty unbelievable in the beginning as well (infantry at 15 with 3 upgrades!:crazyeye:) but we'll see - I want to play it all the way to the end before I start making changes.

    My thought is to reduce the strength of the Chinese infantry back to 5 with no upgrades for most of the units and 2 upgrades for the core divisions that were actually controlled by Chiang as they were both better equiped and better trained although with generally bad leadership. I'm not sure what this does to play balance but I think it will more accurately reflect the reality on the ground in 1936.

    But that's what makes this fun - we can make a few changes, see what works and what doesn't and play on.:)
     
  13. ZooMan2

    ZooMan2 Chieftain

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    Sounds really cool:cool: - I don't agree with everything you changed but I'd love to play test it as you've obviously put quite a bit of effort into it and I'm big on not trying to recreate the wheel - if it works great - if not, we keep changing it until it does.:)So, yeah, load it up and let's give it a go.
     
  14. Omathaar

    Omathaar Chieftain

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    Will do! We can start talking about what you (or anyone else) disagrees with, too. It's all a work-in-progress :)
     
  15. Omathaar

    Omathaar Chieftain

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    Hey, uh, how do I upload a .rar bigger than 10 MB? It says that's the max size :p
     
  16. MajorWinters

    MajorWinters Chieftain

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    Lots of posts. I'm not going to bother reading all of your changes yet, but its looks good , some of them i don't like but its you stuff, you can upload if you want. But anyway to recap what i want to do is: change some unit strengths/stats, add some new units/unique units, add some techs for said unique units, change the map a little, and maybe extend the game a little to encompass the start of the cold war (a little to much maybe, only going to be done if time allows).
     
  17. Omathaar

    Omathaar Chieftain

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    Well, yeah, I'll keep the changes I like, but don't be shy about saying what you want to change. I've been figuring this out by trial and error, and there's lots still to do.

    What sorts of new units and techs are you thinking about?

    As for Open Play, one of the bigger problems I had was small nations suiciding, DoW-ing on everyone around at once. I still don't know quite why they do that, does anyone else? I may look into it, at some point.

    (And I'm still at a loss as to how I upload my file. It's a 389MB .rar file. Anyone know?)
     
  18. Omathaar

    Omathaar Chieftain

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    :hammer2: Uh, nevermind about the upload thing. Found it.
     
  19. MajorWinters

    MajorWinters Chieftain

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    Let's see, i want to add unique marine (assuming the marine is already a unit, i don't remember i haven't played in a while) and paratrooper units, unique naval units, techs to correspond to the new units.
     
  20. Omathaar

    Omathaar Chieftain

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