I'm playing an RFC game as Arabia and recently acquired a bunch of vassal states. I wanted to know if the "No Foreign Trade Routes" of the mercantilism civic applies to vassals as well. Allowing vassal trade would be historically accurate, as the point of mercantilism was to trade with your colonies.
Running Mercantilism
- Thread starter Nymbo
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drlake
Emperor
It seems to me it does (I'm pretty sure I had trade routes to vassal cities while running Mercantilism in my current game) but you can always test it by saving, changing to Merc, and then looking.
whats a navy
Prince
Never knew you didn't lose trade routes from your vassals. thanks for the find!
Scoottr
Prince
I don't think I have ever switcehd to Mercantilsm...I just can't see losing the trade cash for the supposed benefit.
I don't play with Vassals on in my games so maybe that makes a big difference?
I don't play with Vassals on in my games so maybe that makes a big difference?
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Mercantilism can be handy in the right circumstances. The AI is inordinately fond of it; I've had games where every other civ ran Merc for a long time, thus cutting off all my foreign trade routes. In those circumstances, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em--especially if you're spiritual and can make the change without anarchy. Using the free specialist as a merchant should help make up for some of the lost trade route income.
drlake
Emperor
I use Mercantilism periodically. There are times when the free specialists are worth more than the trade routes (like when all available trade routes are on your own continent, or when you need more EPs NOW).
I'm not sure what the breaking points are for this but I've read accounts by players indicating a net economic gain by running merchantilism. I think conditions in which this applies is when your cities have significantly greater populations than rival civs' cities. If I remember right, this means they're enjoying more dividends from shared trade routes than you are (assuming the same trade & commerce multiplier benefits). The idea, by closing those routes, you lose the bonuses for foreign trade (and an trade route if switching from Free Market) while the AI lose not only the foreign trade bonus but also a high yield route. You also somewhat mitigate the foreign trade bonus loss with a higher population route gain. So in a nutshell, if your internal trade routes are awesome while rival cities are small, moving merchantilism moves you ahead overall by setting you back a tiny bit and the AI a great deal. (Note: it only works well like that if there's no alternative civ with large cities for the AI replace the routes with.)
Does anyone have an idea as to what the breaking points are? Cause i think this would help us all out rather a lot, as i have spent as much as 5 minutes trying to figure out what to run.
If your empire is large enough, or xenophobic enough (very few open boarders), Merc will improve your economy much more than with Free Market. Merc synergizes extremely well with Representation and Pacifism.
It is highly situational, but if you can manage to build/conquer the Pyramids early on, and bee-line Banking, and somehow fill in Taoism or build the Swhedagon Paya, chances are your economy will be vastly superior to anyone other civ's economy. Just as Universal Suffrage synergizes well well with Free Speech, so does Merc with other civics.
Another good time to go to Merc, is when all of the AI decides to switch. If you get into that awkward time when a bunch of your friendly AIs have just discovered Banking, you may want to consider following suite.
Merc is extremely powerful early on, as 6 extra beakers per city or 2 gold 1 hammer 3 beakers per city (Priest with Angkor Wat) can really help make up for the lack of foreign trading routes.
With all that said, CE > SE. It's just in the time before you get Free Speech and Printing Press that Merc can really shine.
I don't know that there's not really a concrete differential, but there are indicators I look for. One thing that raises a flag for me is when my coastal cities (which have harbors and customHouse) have domestic trade routes generating almost as much
as intercontinental, foreign trade routes. Another sign I look for (this requires enough
points on rival civs to investigate cities), is when rival civs' cities most profitable trade routes are with your cities. I consider the difference between routes with your cities and other rivals cities the strength of the indication. By this I mean, let's you share a continent with Cathy and Liz is another continent. The three of you share open borders and trade routes with one another. If you look at Cathy's coastal cities and see that routes to your cities generate more commerce than those to Liz's cities, you can conclude that Cathy profits more by trading with you than Liz, especially when she has a customs house in that city and your route still outperforms one from another continent.In these instances, when you switch to merc, you and your rivals will setup new replacement routes. You'll probably loose some commerce, but the AI's with whom you were trading will loose more. The size of the gap between you the second best trader determines how much your former trade partners will loose after the switch. The trade is important. If your routes are the best, but there are 2 or 3 other civs with huge populations (that aren't running mercantilism) closing your routes will allow these other civs to scoop of the trade and replace you, without setting the global economy back very much.
Finally, I believe the demographics screen provides relevant information. If I have highly productive domestic trade routes, but am loosing out in the import/export category I start thinking about Mercantilism.
Note,
missions are cheaper when targeting cities in which you have a trade route. This cuts both ways. I'm not sure whether or not this affects automatic 
spread.
Dr.Null
forIhavetastedthesushi
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2009
- Messages
- 597
Mercantilism combines well with specialist boosters (Representation and Sistine Chapel).
With Sistine, you'll see border pops for new cities happen as fast as they would if you were Creative. Even if it's just a free Citizen quasi-specialist, it's free beakers (with Rep) and free culture (with Sistine), and of course it's a free hammer which may or may not be important.
With Sistine, you'll see border pops for new cities happen as fast as they would if you were Creative. Even if it's just a free Citizen quasi-specialist, it's free beakers (with Rep) and free culture (with Sistine), and of course it's a free hammer which may or may not be important.
drlake
Emperor
Works well with Caste system, since you can use Artist, Scientist, and Merchant specialists as well. Artist for border pops, anyone?
TheWilltoAct
I am observe
Dr.Null
forIhavetastedthesushi
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2009
- Messages
- 597
Oh yeah, it's brilliant with Caste System, I'm just saying that even in other situations it can be good.Works well with Caste system, since you can use Artist, Scientist, and Merchant specialists as well. Artist for border pops, anyone?
roguepro92
Warlord
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2010
- Messages
- 218
sorry for newb question
what is vassal state?
how do you get vassal states?
what is vassal state?
how do you get vassal states?
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Vassal states were introduced in the Warlords expansion pack. In a nutshell, one civ agrees to become subservient to another civ (one of them has to have the Feudalism technology). They give up control over things like diplomacy, research, and trade in return for protection. They might do this voluntarily or they might be forced into it (which is called "capitulation") rather than facing obliteration through warfare.
In a relatively recent Beyond the Sword patch, a third option for vassals was introduced: colonies. You can make 2 or more cities on a separate landmass from your capital into a colony--essentially an ultra-friendly vassal.
I have more information about vassals in my beginners' guide (link in my sig).
Woodreaux makes some very good points.
It's not very often that Mercantilism will allow you the fastest possible research, but often enough switching to Mercantilism will hurt you considerably less than it will hurt the rest of the world. As such the decision often depends on my tech goal: 'Want tech x asap' doesn't favour Mercantilism, 'want a monopoly on tech x for as long as possible' does.
Typical cases that make you lose less from the switch to Mercantlism than your rivals:
- Little international trade anyway (closed borders or competitors are running it themselves)
- You are playing a high difficulty level (discounts make their injections count for more)
- You are considerably larger (more foreign trade routes for them relatively)
- You have vassals, they do not
- You have plenty of islands, they do not
- They have customs houses, you do not
I usually prefer Mercantilism if I am running Representation. It means I can close borders when it suits me without taking an economic hit, and I find that a slower global tech pace favours humans because it gives one more time to leverage an advantage.
It's not very often that Mercantilism will allow you the fastest possible research, but often enough switching to Mercantilism will hurt you considerably less than it will hurt the rest of the world. As such the decision often depends on my tech goal: 'Want tech x asap' doesn't favour Mercantilism, 'want a monopoly on tech x for as long as possible' does.
Typical cases that make you lose less from the switch to Mercantlism than your rivals:
- Little international trade anyway (closed borders or competitors are running it themselves)
- You are playing a high difficulty level (discounts make their injections count for more)
- You are considerably larger (more foreign trade routes for them relatively)
- You have vassals, they do not
- You have plenty of islands, they do not
- They have customs houses, you do not
I usually prefer Mercantilism if I am running Representation. It means I can close borders when it suits me without taking an economic hit, and I find that a slower global tech pace favours humans because it gives one more time to leverage an advantage.
A good list covering most of the situations when Merc can be better than FM.
I'd add another reason:
- extra GPPs generated in any city that will eventually generate another GP.
Most cities won't gain from the extra specialist. But in some SE games I might have 4 or even 6 cities that gain from a period of Merc, espcially if I'm Philosophical or have any of the other %GPP bonusses. Those GPPs can be worth a lot depending on how you use the GPs when they eventually appear.
Just to illustrate the point made about losing out from being larger than your trade partner. Take this case where you have 20 cities (10 from recent expansion) and your main research rival has 10 cities. Many of your cities will be underdeveloped while his has good infrastructure. Under FM he will need 40 trade routes and you will provide 20 for him all with the +150% foreign trade multiplier. On the otherhand you will need 80 trade routes and he will only provide 10 for you. So basically we're giving him 2 times as much trade as he's giving us. Add to that he has better discounts on research and upgrading units on any difficulty above noble. If your trade routes are going to his biggest and best developed cities with a custom house and he has built universities in those cities, while you haven't yet. All these factors together on higher difficulty levels can be as much as four times more favourable to your rival as you in terms of beakers.
After expansion many players are desperate beakers at any price but it is a false economy and making it harder to catch up by using FM in the above case. Mercantilism will help get your newly conquered cities out of the pit and slow down your rival. It is an undervalued civic.
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