1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Runoff Poll - Vote on New Polling Rules (Current Turn 77)

Discussion in 'Team Kazakhstan' started by Sommerswerd, Mar 24, 2009.

?

How Many Persons Should Ask For a Poll Before One is Posted?

Poll closed Mar 31, 2009.
  1. Leave it Up to the Internal Affairs Minister

    23.1%
  2. Two Persons - Any Request for a Poll Will Require Someone to Second the Request

    38.5%
  3. Three Persons - Any Request for a Poll Will Require At Least Two Additional Sponsors

    38.5%
  1. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,454
    Location:
    Wakanda Forever
    This poll concerns our polling rules:crazyeye:

    This is a runoff poll... The original poll was Vote on New Polling Rules

    I will leave this poll open for a long time so that as many team members as possible have an opportunity to vote... However...

    ONCE YOU HAVE CAST YOUR VOTE, DO NOT POST ON THE POLL THREAD TO SAY YOU ARE CHANGING VOTES. VOTE CHANGING IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED. ALL VOTES ARE FINAL.

    Also, please try to limit your posts on this poll to ONE POST. Additional comments arguments, etc., should go in the general "Polls" thread. :goodjob:

    We will have a runoff poll between the top 2 choices, unless there is an obvious overwhelming majority for one of the choices. Overwhelming majority means, that if everyone who did not vote for the winning choice were to vote for the runner up choice, the runner up would still lose.

    Happy Polling!!!:D

    Explanation of Choices

    Choice: Just Leave Polling Up to The Internal Affairs Minister
    Right now, the way our polling works, is the Internal Affairs Minister (me:)) reads the forums and decides when we should have a poll, based on what polls are being requested/ what else folks are saying / not saying / in-game & other circumstances / interest & activity in the forums etc. The bottom line is... its basically a judgment call. To be fair, it might even be described as a unilateral judgment call.

    If this is the system we select, I will generally want to poll our tech choices and city locations... UNLESS there is great outcry (more than 1 or 2 people) against polling the issue, AND/OR no other choices have been discussed or suggested (so we are unanimously in support of a particular choice). Also, if EVERYONE who has posted recently has clearly and unambiguously posted in favor of one option that would dissuade me from wanting to poll the issue. For example: Saying "I support Metal Casting IF we can get Cavalieros to research Aesthetics," is not clear and unambiguous, because the decision could go either way. If ANYONE'S last post on the issue said something like that, I would still want to poll the issue. Anytime there is ANY doubt on how folks might stand on these two issues, I would favor having a poll, just to be sure.

    For other issues, I would only want to poll if a poll was specifically requested by at least two team members.

    If you like this system and want things to stay the way they are, then you should select: Just Leave Polling Up to the Internal Affairs Minister.

    Choices: Two Persons - Any request for a poll Will require A Team Member to Second the Request, Three Persons - Any request for a poll will require at least two sponsors

    The remaining choices require one team member (including the IAM) to request the poll, and different team member(s) (including the IAM) to second / sponsor the request. If the required number of team members request the poll, the IAM is obligated to post the poll, regardless of whether the IAM wants the poll, and regardless of whether other members of the team want the poll. The more team members that are required to request a poll, the more difficult it will be to get a poll posted.

    Therefore, if you want there to be polls more often, you should select: Two Persons, If you want polls less frequently, you should select Three Persons
     
  2. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,894
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Wait a minute here. What happened to the option for anyone to call for a poll? I am not voting in this poll since ALL the options restrict our voice on this team. Anyone should be able to call for a poll since we are all equal members of this team.

    I am boycotting all polls. I urge others to do the same and publicly join me in this boycott.
     
  3. Indiansmoke

    Indiansmoke Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,124
    Location:
    Athens, Greece
    Yea I was wondering that myself...we are getting a bit formal on this system aren't we?

    Maybe we should relax abit and make it more casual...I am for anyone wishing to make a poll to go ahead and do it...

    I am against polls in general as I already said...and I believe the fewer the better..... but anyone should have the right to do it.
     
  4. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,608
    I will boycott as well. This poll is taking us down the wrong path.
     
  5. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,987
    I believe it is a runoff of those votes which got the most the 1st time around.
     
  6. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    Well, we need polls, as that is the only neutral way to arbitrate different directions of the team. I prefer polls to mockery and silencing of ideas and such, as it is now. If someone want a tech, route, a city location or declare a war, and we got different opinions, and we got a time pressure to act, we poll it.
     
  7. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,608
    What mockery and silencing of ideas?
     
  8. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,987
    Did you vote in the 1st poll? Runoff elections are for more fair than other forms of voting.
     
  9. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,987
    I am going to vote for the two person option. I like the simplicity of letting the internal affairs person handle it but I think two people serves the same purpose.

    One person can request a poll and if the internal affairs person agrees then that is two people. Of course if the internal affairs person is being obstructionist two people can still make it happen.

    Seems fairly easy and fair to me.
     
  10. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,608
    Nah I didn't vote in the first poll because I'm opposed to the legalistic formalism path that our teams seems to be taking. Excessive polling leads to bad decisions and Demagoguery.
     
  11. Kaleb

    Kaleb Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2004
    Messages:
    2,451
    Location:
    London
    Man, how did this whole thing become such a divisive issue? :sad:
     
  12. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,987
    Only for a few people - most of the team seems to like the idea. I mean we did have a poll on it. :lol:
     
  13. Provolution

    Provolution Sage of Quatronia

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2004
    Messages:
    10,102
    Location:
    London
    There are some players that prefer the role of having selected court advisers who can indiscretionary overrule majority voices by silencing tactics, ridicule and strong wording that their course of action is the "only sane one", and suddenly refer to the advantages of informality etc.

    I prefer an honest poll, even if I lose, as its a tidy online arbitration mechanism to settle disputes on strategic choices. After all, this is a team game, and leveraging social pressure or talking down to people is not the way to do it, and consensus may take too much time and energy.
     
  14. cav scout

    cav scout The Continuum

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2008
    Messages:
    2,608
    It might be good to remove the wood plank from your own eye before going after the sliver (real or imagined) in others.


    For the record I am not against polls. I love polls and think they are a great tool. We should use then whenever we can't come to a decision on something with normal discussion.

    My opposition is on a more subtle point: If we get too caught up in the formalism, procedure and mechanics of polling this can actually stiffle open and well reasoned debate. I don't want this to turn into an ancient Athenian direct democracy where demagogues use rhetoric and procedure to get their way.

    I have experienced this in real life in a small group setting. So when my ears perked up and my "spidy senses" starting tingling I gave a gentle warning. Donsig picked up on this and together we have both made cautionary comments here. That's all.
     
  15. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,894
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    I prefer honest polls, too and that's why I'm against the system Sommerswerd is creating. Since the team is considering making a rule where at least two people need to ask for a poll you might not always get to cast that vote you say is so important to you Provo. Anyone on the team should not only be able to request a poll, we all should be able to post a poll if we see fit.

    @Kaleb: It became divisive because we have one member (Sommerswerd) who decided he wanted to do something about polls. It all seemed harmless at first and not such a bad idea so we just went along. Now it's gone too far and rather than step back and listen to the dissenting voices Sommerswerd continues further along the path some of us do not like.

    @damnrunner: Yeah there was a previous poll but it's not always wise to just take the top choices of a poll and run them through the polling mill again. Sometimes it's much better and wiser to have more discussion on the matter because if you don't then you don't get one of those honest polls Provo mentioned but a poll that results in a winning option that no one really likes.
     
  16. damnrunner

    damnrunner Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,987
    Sorry I am just having fun now but maybe we could poll to see who is happy with the outcome of this polling debacle.

    My vote is happy.
     
  17. Herviov

    Herviov Chieftain

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2008
    Messages:
    73
    Location:
    Ottawa
    This issue of polling has reached a sufficiently high level of apparent discord for me to step in with a scholar approach. Those that are still ruminating shouldn't read what follows as they might feel that I am using a condesdeding tone. I do not point to anyone or any point of view in particular.

    Us, as a social group, share a common objective of winning this game. This require us to maintain a certain level of consistency and rationality in our decision making. Another central issue is the volunteer aspect of the indivicdual involvement in this game. These two caracteristics of the current process we are going through have consequences over the modus operandi that we have to select in order to reach our objective.

    As we have independent minds, we disagree on several issues. Furthermore, we are scattered around the world and share different cultural background. In order to maintain a certain level of cohesion amongst our group, we do need to establish a certain numbers of rules and, for the sake of efficiency, a certain level of task specialization.

    Rules are needed to maintain the legitimacy of decision-making, not necessarily its rationality (which is maintained through debating that occurs within the rules). In this game, the legitimacy of a decision is generated by its adequation with the "general will" (french term hard to translate exactly but you get the idea) of the team. Polls are a method of incarnating this will when simple debate does not generate an apparent consensus. The reason why we need rules about the conduct of polls is to maintain the legitimacy of polls as representations of the team's general will. Without rules, polls would be called, conducted and used as a basis of legitmacy in an anarchic way that would in fact undermine their effectiveness as representation of the team's general will. It is therefore necessary to impose limitations on the conducts of OFFICIAL, LEGITIMATING polls. Unoficial, or private, polls, like the one that I am about to do, shouldn't have the same restrictions as the are legitimate only to those conducting them (and those willing to believe the results). In order to avoid any confusion, I suggest that they should be clearly identified as not being official and their number should be kept low in order to maintain our forum in good shape. This is roughly why, in my opinion, rules are needed in order to protect the legitimacy of the decision-making process of our team, particularly when non-consensual issues are concerned.

    As you are all players of civilization, I do not need to remember you all that the basis of civilization is the sedentarization, the accumulation of food surplus (generaly through agriculture) and the specialization of labor (for reference see the introduction movie at the beginning of a new game). Specialization of labour allows a greater efficiency. In this case, the tracking and recognition of official polls appears to me as an important task as far as team cohesion is concerned. Specializing somebody on this task would allow speed in the process and an high level of consistency in it.

    As we are all doing this out of fun, it is important that everybody feels that he or she is respected at least by the process even though his or her view might not be the one that ultimatly wins. For example, I really believe that it would be more beneficial in the long run to build our iron city on the tundra spot. But the team general will, incarnated by the 2 to 6 poll result, points toward the hill spot. Well the polling process allowed me to be heard while the majority didn't had to make more noise then me in order to look like the winner in a anarchic debating "the loudest win" process. And no elaborate process of mild intimidation was needed (this being real or perceived is not the issue as the result is a frustrated team member anyway).

    Hoping nobody thinks I'm being arrogant or anything

    Herviov
     
  18. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Messages:
    211
    Location:
    Chicago
    This polling issue is ridiculous.

    But since it's become the issue du game, I'm going to put in my two cents anyway.

    It all comes down to what the polls are going to be used for. It seems that we are moving toward using them as a decision making tool--meaning that we are actually going to follow the poll result. In this case, a very clear set of guidelines are needed in order to avoid abuse/confusion, provide legitimacy, robustness of process, etc.

    For this reason, I'm absolutely dead set against letting everyone have the power to post a poll. In fact, the fewer people that have the right to post a poll, and the more difficult it is, the better. Polls are deceiving. The presentation of the poll--timing, the wording, the choices, hell, even the order of choices--have impacts on user responses. This is rife for manipulation and confusion. In short, having the power to post a poll WITH REAL CONSEQUENCES, is a power I would not give away lightly.

    Therefore, I voted for the third option. And if there was an option for 10 people to endorse a poll, including its exact wording and timing, I would have voted for that instead.

    Also, if we are going to make polls legitimate, have we instituted a quorum requirement? Right now, it seems that barely 8 ppl actually bother voting, our of a team of twenty plus. This is ******** if we are going to follow the results of the poll. In my mind, the results have little legitimacy.
     
  19. mikotian

    mikotian Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Messages:
    211
    Location:
    Chicago
    Follow up:

    I actually think Sommers had done a pretty good job with the polls. So, leaving it up to the interior minister would have been my 2nd choice.

    I would agree though, that fewer polls are better... But they are unavoidable if we are going to give everyone a voice, and not only people who post a lot in the forums.
     
  20. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2001
    Messages:
    12,894
    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Sommers has done an excellent job with the mechanics of posting polls and the Sommers System will lead to polls that avoid many of the pitfalls Mikotian pointed out. When we do need polls I hope Sommers will continue to take charge of the poll posting process.

    What is not good is having one person decide when we will and will not have polls. Any member of this team should be able to ask for a poll. That said, I think we should use polls wisely for making decisions that can't be made through discussion alone. And I am absolutely opposed to automatically polling certain decisions (like next tech).
     

Share This Page