Rural/urban divide?

https://www.ruralhealthinfo.org/am-i-rural

Census 2010, Percent Rural Information for Vernon County
  • Percent of County Population that is Rural: 85.69

Where are the 14.31% of the population in my county that is 'urban'? Smack dab in the middle of the largest town (4500 people), it's still rural.

Edit: found it. It's the far corner of the county, closest to the 'urban' town of 50k in nearby county (3-5 miles away from southern party of city). An area that is off the main highway on a county highway, but quite a few houses, but still with lots of forests. It's like if you built a suburban area (of a small town) in the middle of the forest, and try to knock down the least number of trees in doing so. There is a trailer park there too. In fact, the trailer park is the border and is urban, the property across the street is rural.
 
50 thousand great apes living somewhere make almost the entire landscape human where they are. 10 thousand do, too. Man alive, everything big but us seems critically endangered compared to the 80s. Even the bugs seem to be collapsing. It's not about if it's the biggest concentration of apes, socially? Is it?
 
https://www.ruralhealthinfo.org/am-i-rural



Where are the 14.31% of the population in my county that is 'urban'? Smack dab in the middle of the largest town (4500 people), it's still rural.

Edit: found it. It's the far corner of the county, closest to the 'urban' town of 50k in nearby county (3-5 miles away from southern party of city). An area that is off the main highway on a county highway, but quite a few houses, but still with lots of forests. It's like if you built a suburban area (of a small town) in the middle of the forest, and try to knock down the least number of trees in doing so. There is a trailer park there too. In fact, the trailer park is the border and is urban, the property across the street is rural.
Seems the Census Bureau and OMB use two different definitions. Both seem arbitrary to me. Reminds me of electoral districts, perhaps unsurprisingly. There are probably reasons the government considers area X to be part of a larger metro area, but it doesn’t really resemble what the average person would probably draw up, I don’t think.
50 thousand great apes living somewhere make almost the entire landscape human where they are. 10 thousand do, too. Man alive, everything big but us seems critically endangered compared to the 80s. Even the bugs seem to be collapsing. It's not about if it's the biggest concentration of apes, socially? Is it?
The way the OMB defines a metro area of 50k plus is often unusual IMO. Where I live is considered part of a metro area that’s a 15, 20 min drive away. I’ve haven’t been to that area in probably 15 years, and I don’t really know many people here or there that would consider my town to be part of their area. Two separate entities. Other, much smaller towns are also considered part of that urban area and defined as urban according to OMB.

General point about ecological collapse is different but yeah. Landscape in between towns here, all cornfields. Even in areas both OMB and Census Bureau would define as rural, urban centers demands for food still shape land and dominate over natural, wild landscapes.
 
If you need to go there to get your food, it's not a different entity even if there are some of those people you don't particularly register looking at while they're there.
 
I don’t. Most people in the surrounding area probably shop here, which is only 30k(which doesn’t meet OMB’s 50k+ definition of urban). Not really sure why we’re considered part of a larger area. Not much overlap. I’d hazard a blind guess that budgetary concerns probably come into it, somewhere.
 
I bet you're wrong about the overlap. They are people that get their food, there. They live there whether you think they do, or not!
 
I mean, it’s linked in a broad sense, yeah. It’s just that most of the people in these towns I see consider themselves as going to an entirely different town to buy things, rather than traveling within the same metro area. The links between them are relatively weak in people’s headspace.

In Atlanta, a pretty spread out area, I think there’s a sense that it’s all part of a metro. It’s not like that here.

There’s also a trend of people driving some distance into the country for groceries, too. Prices are really noticeably lower, up to 25%. Not all of them do, but the patterns are more complicated than live in country, must drive into city for food.

edit: I might speculate here that the size of the urban center is influential in determining whether people consider themselves a part of it. Columbus OH has a greater gravitational pull than numerous smaller urban centers like Akron(and some people I know from outta state don’t even consider Akron its own thing, but think it’s a suburb of Cleveland)
 
Sure. It's more complicated. But there's more overlap between grocers and an hour round trip for apples from corn country than there is within city boundries themselves, often enough. There are three major pockets where the grocery stores change, about where I tend to go. The languages spoken change along with the complexion of the shoppers. Less overlap between them than between a NASCAR and lacrosse fan(which isn't reliable in the first place, but it serves as shorthand) when it comes to where they're buying soup. So while these various-colored towns all tax into the same district, and work in the same district, they don't eat together as much. Where do you think the corn country people work? Largely? Where does the local tax generated from their 8+ daily hours of on-site personhood, go? Does the geographic range for how far those services are shared define the boundary of the community? The pools are out of district rates. The libraries are out of district rates. The schools are taxed differently. You pony in, and then you "go home" and pony up again. There is a lot of overlap.
 
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Where do you think the corn country people work? Largely? Where does the tax generated from their 8+ hours of on-site personhood, go? Does the geographic range for how far those services are shared define the boundary of the community? The pools are out of district rates. The libraries are out of district rates. The schools are taxed differently. You pony in, and then you go home and pony up again. There is a lot of overlap.
I think I’ve been generally convinced of your point regarding government overlap, here. I could debate minutiae, there’s enough there to do it(alotta people live in town, but the factory they work at is considerably far into the country) but I do accept the gist of it.

When I struggle to accept that they are part of the same metro area, it’s with the cultural aspects of it. People in the villages that come to work in the 30k town are common enough, but they have different habits and preferences, and self-identify differently: they just work here. They don’t self-identify as being from here in my experience.

You can include them as part of the same area, there’s enough there to make an argument for it. I’m just not sure the people I know would self-identify that way. They may qualify based on some definitions like access to services, but cultural preferences are pretty different.
 
Viroqua (rural, population 4,500) has a walmart and another grocery store (and movie theater, restaurants-'family' restaurants, fast food, chinese, etc.,) most of the stuff you'd find in larger cities, just on a smaller scale. 30 miles from La Crosse (urban, population 50,000). Alot of people in Viroqua work in La Crosse. If you want a shopping mall, or many more activities than what's available in Viroqua, you go to La Crosse. If Viroqua was less than 5 miles from La Crosse, yes I could see it being called urban instead of rural (if La Crosse is considered Urban). Going north of La Crosse, Onalaska is urban, basically a suburb of La Crosse, they literally border each other. Onalaska has more of surburban feel to it, with nicer houses, golf courses, etc. Going 5 more miles north to Holmen (10,000 people), southern half of town is urban, northern half of town is rural. I suppose lines have to be drawn somewhere.
 
The way the OMB defines a metro area of 50k plus is often unusual IMO. Where I live is considered part of a metro area that’s a 15, 20 min drive away. I’ve haven’t been to that area in probably 15 years, and I don’t really know many people here or there that would consider my town to be part of their area. Two separate entities. Other, much smaller towns are also considered part of that urban area and defined as urban according to OMB.
Viroqua (rural, population 4,500) has a walmart and another grocery store (and movie theater, restaurants-'family' restaurants, fast food, chinese,
Wal Marts may be an indicator of urbanness now-a-days. @Rg339 Where is your nearest Wal Mart?
 
Same town I live in, approx 30k. You can get pretty much anything here from brick and mortar stores. It’s got a mall(struggling with online shopping cutting into their market).

It’s defined as urban by both bureaus. Just not really urban the same way larger cities are.

edit: to clarify, by not “really urban” I mean a difference in social structures. You know, either personally or through your family, quite a few people. It’s not the scale where major cities are where the majority are complete strangers. Employment opportunities are different, too. Not a whole lotta office work, or high tech work, which seems concentrated more in major cities. Manufacturing, agribusiness, service sector and healthcare yeah, but not much cutting-edge stuff providing opportunities.
 
I'm sceptical of this. The rural population of the US is no more than 20%; it doesn't seem credible that they constitute a majority of Republican voters, let alone the overwhelming majority we would need to argue that partisan divides fall along urban vs rural lines.

If, in federal elections, the US sees turnouts of roughly 60-70%, and roughly half of those votes are cast for the Republicans, for rural voters to constitute even a majority of Republican voters, it would require at least 80% of rural residents to vote Republican, which if we allow that rural areas must contain at least some Democratic voters, would realistically require turnouts of 90% or more, far above the national average- when in fact, the opposite appears to be true, that rural residents in much of the US are markedly less likely to vote than urban residents, so it seems very probable that the great majority of Republican voters reside in urban and suburban areas.

If there is a rural/urban divide in US politics, it seems rather than the specific set of entrenched interests that the Republican Party represents, like resource-extraction, arms manufacturing and agriculture, are not as economically reliant on urban populations as those which the Democratic Party represents, and so are more likely to see cities as big, messy, expensive things that they would rather not subsidise. This leads the Republican Party to adopt anti-urban policies without it following that they should adopt pro-rural policies.

I think Rg339's point about statistical definitions of urban versus what the average American would consider urban is very relevant here. If the rural population were really 20%, your point would make sense, but that's only for a very generous definition of "urban". I definitely would not consider a town of 2600 people to be "urban". It's not a farm and it's not a wide spot in the road, but that's about the population my grandparents' town was when I was growing up. Neither I nor my parents would say it was urban - my parents specifically said they moved to the big city when they left it. It had a motel (later a separate hotel), a fast-food place, a local restaurant, in later years a Mexican place, and a flea market. No movie theater, no bowling alley, no grocery store (well, there was in the '50s, but not by the '90s), you had to go to the closest towns of 10,000 to 15,000 for those. You could walk from one end to the other in a day without much difficulty, there were harvest festivals with excellent food, and I've only ever met one other person from outside the area who knew of the town; he'd also moved to the big city. But within the town, everyone knew everyone, if not literally then at least close enough that people said they did.

I'll take Ohio as an example, since I live there. There are six metro areas that I think most Americans would agree are urban:

Cleveland
Columbus
Cincinnati
Akron
Dayton
Toledo

Combined, these metro areas make up 73.8% of the state's population, including the parts of the Cincinnati area that are actually in Indiana or Kentucky. Taking out those Kentuckians/Indianans yields 69.1% of Ohioans in the six urban areas that most Americans are likely to have heard of at some point. If you're generous and count Youngstown and Canton, it goes back up to 77.1%, but that's getting into questionable of whether someone from outside of Ohio or Pennsylvania would be familiar with them. Farther down - Springfield (Ohio, not Missouri), Mansfield, Weirton/Steubenville, Lima - and no one's going to know about them outside of Ohio (and West Virginia for Weirton/Steubenville). For Springfield and Lima, if Americans have heard of them, they'll likely think you mean Missouri and Peru, respectively.

Springfield is a city, I was there three weeks ago. It even has a symphony and an art museum, which as an Ohioan who lives an hour away you would not guess. 136,000 live in the metro area, of which a bit less than half live in the city itself. Is it urban? Well, yes, technically. But even by Ohio's standards, it's considered a bit provincial, and while its art museum, symphony, and university suggest it may be culturally urban, few people in Columbus or Dayton (the nearest other metro areas, an hour or less away) would guess you'd find those amenities there. Yes, Springfield probably doesn't have the best marketing department. But it's also a good example of somewhere that is big enough to count as urban by many measures, but is borderline for being seen as such even in the region. And I wouldn't have guessed it had 100,000 people, which brings me to the next point:

The population figures for metro areas include all the counties in the metro area. In Columbus's case, that is 10 counties (out of 88 in Ohio). One of those, Franklin, is where 98% of Columbus is located, and is indeed quite urban. Southern Delaware county is also fairly urban, and one could make a decent case for parts of Licking County, particularly Newark, Ohio, counting as urban, too. Franklin County does make up close to two-thirds of the Columbus metro population, and if we throw in southern Delaware, we'll hit 2/3. But that takes the 69-77% figure (depending on the fate of Youngstown/Canton) down to 46-51%. Which happens to be the same relative range that we see for the political divide.

Looking at the county-by-county maps for elections really help illustrates that, too. Franklin County, home of Columbus, is 60-70% Democratic, more so when Trump is involved. All of the other counties in the "Columbus metro" area vote majority Republican in federal, and generally state-level, elections, although Delaware is becoming less red as Columbus and its suburbs expand that way. Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Toledo are similar. I'm less sure about Akron/Dayton (though Dayton elects Democratic mayors), but Youngstown's county, Mahoning, is more like 50-55% Democratic, likely illustrating that Youngstown is not as big of an urban center as the "three C's".

Meanwhile, the everyone-considers-them-rural counties went up to 80% for Trump, which was more red than usual, but they're usually still quite reliably red. Sure, there might be blotches of blue where a larger town exists, but those towns' counties won't be quite as red as the most red ones. Lima's probably a bit blue, but not enough to move its county out of the pink zone.

So, in summary, while the official statistical definitions make it seem like 80% of the population is urban, in reality they lump a lot of people into those "metro" areas that live in small towns or even legitimately out in the country. I spend a lot of time in both southern and northern Delaware County this past year, and there's a huge difference. Northern Delaware County has yard signs all over saying, "No to the highway extension, preserve rural Delaware County's character". Southern Delaware county generally wants the highway to reduce congestion by providing a new route to points north/northwest. And I can see what the northern people mean when they refer to the rural character. You'd never guess that you were so close to a major city as you really are up there, some parts feel positively remote.

Link to the 2020 presidential election results by county: https://www.cnn.com/election/2020/results/state/ohio All of the big cities' that I mentioned above had their home counties vote for Biden, and the only other county to do so was Athens County, home to Ohio University, a large public university (universities also tend to make counties more blue). Youngstown's home county went slightly for Trump, although the city mayor is a Democrat. The only other "pink" counties are neighbors of Toledo, Columbus, and Cleveland's home counties. Springfield's home county went 60% Trump. You can hover over counties for the percentages; the ones that are 75%+ Trump (and there are a fair amount) are pretty closely correlated with the ones where I'd have a hard time naming a town in that county as an Ohioan, unless the town and the county have the same name.
 
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I don't think size of a town alone can determine if somewhere is rural or not.
Hereford is a city of 60,000 people, but it is the county town of an overwhemingly rural county.
I live in a town of 30,000 people but like most of the Vale of Glamorgan its commuter belt for Cardiff. There are as many golf courses and riding stables as farms.
I'd consider Hereford rural and my little town urban if we are going to try and fit everywhere in just 2 categories.
 
Looking at the county-by-county maps for elections really help illustrates that, too. Franklin County, home of Columbus, is 60-70% Democratic, more so when Trump is involved. All of the other counties in the "Columbus metro" area vote majority Republican in federal, and generally state-level, elections, although Delaware is becoming less red as Columbus and its suburbs expand that way. Cincinnati, Cleveland, and Toledo are similar. I'm less sure about Akron/Dayton (though Dayton elects Democratic mayors), but Youngstown's county, Mahoning, is more like 50-55% Democratic, likely illustrating that Youngstown is not as big of an urban center as the "three C's".

Meanwhile, the everyone-considers-them-rural counties went up to 80% for Trump, which was more red than usual, but they're usually still quite reliably red. Sure, there might be blotches of blue where a larger town exists, but those towns' counties won't be quite as red as the most red ones. Lima's probably a bit blue, but not enough to move its county out of the pink zone.
I might be misinterpreting, but from the quote paragraphs above, it feels like you're starting with the conclusion: that we can infer the "rural" or "urban" character of an area by whether it leans Republican or Democratic. But isn't the point under contention whether "rural voters" make up a majority of Republican voters? So if that remains unproven, how can we take "Such-and-such County voters 80% Republican" to mean anything more than "Such-and-such County votes 80% Republican"? If the relationship between voting tendencies and the rural or urban character of a place remains uncertain, how can we taking voting tendencies to point one way or the other?
 
The difference in human infrastructure between a municipality of 1000 and an unincorporated area is...well. A lot. Well or water tower. Sewer or septic field. Municipal snow plough or no. Garbage pick up, or do you burn in the back yard? Graveled road? It seems weird from our here that a worldly concert scene sort of seems like the urban line?
 
The difference in human infrastructure between a municipality of 1000 and an unincorporated area is...well. A lot. Well or water tower. Sewer or septic field. Municipal snow plough or no. Garbage pick up, or do you burn in the back yard? Graveled road? It seems weird from our here that a worldly concert scene sort of seems like the urban line?
Reverse is probably true, too. From the most rural parts of the rural, a small town does look urban. From the most urban parts of the urban, the middle Manhattan, that same small town is country as can be.
 
Indeed. I guess I'm just curious why the definition of how human the landscape is wouldn't revolve around some of the first things we do to reshape it. I haven't even walked back to the point where we start to utterly dominate the total biosphere of the place.
 
Wal Marts may be an indicator of urbanness now-a-days.

Not when its an Amish Walmart (joke).
It's square footage is smaller than most walmarts, alot fewer checkouts, no 3rd party businesses inside (Subway, eye doctor, nail salon, hair salon, etc I've seen in bigger walmarts). When walmart was debating to close down at night, for urban stores the reason was thefts and crime. In rural stores the reason was lack of customers. (No longer 24 hours for either). And yes, not surprising to see a horse and buggy in the lot.

Viroqua is a very small town (4500), but its the county seat and largest town in the county. Going to another walmart I have to go 30+ minutes away, either NW, N or SE (past mostly farm land) to other counties and go to theirs.
 
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