Rush Building

[vorlon_mi]

I have a tactic that I like to use (described below). I have a vague memory that someone said this tactic was not usable for games to be submitted to the HOF, but I can't remember where I read this. Is that correct? Is there some other reason why this is discouraged?

Assume my civ is using a government which allows using gold to hurry production, a.k.a. cash-rushing. I want to build an improvement in a city that is only producing 1 shield per turn... either because it's small, or because it suffers from corruption.
Turn 0: set production to "library" or "harbor" or "temple"
Turn 1: get 1 shield from the town, 1 shield in the box
Change prod to "worker", and click hurry production. 36 gold = 9 more shields
Change prod back to the building, with 10 shields in the box
Turn 2: get 1 shield from the town, 11 shields in the box
Change prod to "explorer", and click hurry production 36 gold = 9 more shields
Change prod back to the building, with 20 shields in the box
Turn 3: get 1 shield from the town, 21 shields in the box
Change prod to "settler" or "cannon" and click hurry production
Settler will require another 36 gold, while cannon will require 76 gold
Change prod back to the building, with 30 or 40 shields in the box
Repeat until you get to the number of shields required for the building.

Is this forbidden? If so, can someone point me to a thread where it was discussed?

Now, even if it's not forbidden, there are questions about why my empire really *needs* that building in a town that small or that corrupt. A case can be made to incrementally rush barracks in towns near the border. Is it better to incremental-rush a 40-shield temple for the culture radius pop (assuming religious), or bring in a 30-shield settler [built in another city] and squeeze into a gap? I prefer the culture pop, since it also extends out over the water... I can't plant a settler in the sea
My builder tendencies lead me to spend my gold as fast as I earn it, by upgrading units and incr-cash-rushing city improvements. Probably why I'm still playing at "Regent" level

 

[CKS]

It is allowed. I would just put one shield in the box and rush the unit or improvement in one turn, though.

 

[Spoonwood]

Ditto CKS. The 2x cost only applies if you don't have any shields in the box. For example, an 80 shield library with no shields in the box costs 640 gold. If you have 1 shield in the box, buying it straight out costs 320-4=316 gold. As another example, you can cash-rush a wormy (worker-army) every turn for 1640 gold. Also, if you're in Feudalism, or Communism, it works better to get 1 shield in the box, have your city at size 4 or bigger, pop-rush in 40 shields for 2 citizens, and then pop-rush whatever else you need. Like say you want an 80 shield library. You let the city grow to size 5 and have at least 1 shield in the box. Short-rush a longbow, then short-rush a musket, and then finish with the library all in the same turn.

 

[GamezRule]

Worker pumps are probably useful for pop rush heavy 100k games.

 

[Spoonwood]

Worker pumps are probably useful for pop rush heavy 100k games.

My opinion on this is to put culture into all cities before starting up any worker pumps.

 

[vorlon_mi]

It is allowed. I would just put one shield in the box and rush the unit or improvement in one turn, though.

I would, if I had that much gold at one time In the middle ages, I will have (maybe) 300 gold in the bank, and will set my science rate to be something positive. Spreading out the short-rushes allows me to spend gold as I earn it.

To get more than 1000 gold at once, what steps do you usually follow? I am already turning down the science rate when I have only one turn left to finish a tech. Do you turn down the science rate while waging war, so there is a gold stockpile to rush improvements or upgrade units?

 

[ChaosArbiter]

Lone Scientist Research at the beginning is one way; being extremely stingy is another. Many players simply turn off research altogether at some points and broker deals with the AI for techs in order to attain lots of gold.

 

[Aabraxan]

I would, if I had that much gold at one time In the middle ages, I will have (maybe) 300 gold in the bank, and will set my science rate to be something positive. Spreading out the short-rushes allows me to spend gold as I earn it.

To get more than 1000 gold at once, what steps do you usually follow? I am already turning down the science rate when I have only one turn left to finish a tech. Do you turn down the science rate while waging war, so there is a gold stockpile to rush improvements or upgrade units?

I'm not sure it's so much a matter of amassing X amount of gold all at once, as it is a matter of improving cash flow generally. If you're already turning down research on the last turn, then I suspect that you're already monitoring all the basics: unit support, building maintenance, etc.

How's your tech trading? Trying to grab monopoly techs and then trying to trade for nfers? I see that you play at Regent level. Honestly, it's hard to make much money at Monarch and below, just because the AI doesn't usually have much to give. At Monarch, trading becomes more lucrative.

Which government do you use?

The best way to get advice on this is to post a save so that other CFCers can see what you're already doing.

 

[vorlon_mi]

I've posted several saves in my other thread, "Choosing an Invasion Site".

I usually use Republic when I'm going for a spaceship or culture win, and have begun using Monarchy when trying for a conquest or domination win.

I guess we have different ideas about how much gold is "much money". I've had no trouble getting several hundred gold together over the course of several turns in the middle ages, but not several thousand. I always gloat when I find the AI defending with non-upgraded spearmen in the middle or industrial ages; I tend to spend my gold on upgrading the defenders in my border towns. I know that I can earn interest after building Wall Street, and do try to carry a larger "minimum balance" once that is built.

In the latest game (in the other thread), I've gotten decent gold-per-turn for luxuries. I agree, that the AI don't have much gold for lump sum payments. I've sold a few techs for all the AI's gold, but it's nowhere near 1000.

 

[PaperBeetle]

Save money by not paying upkeep on defenders, let alone upgrading them.

Anyway, I think the issue you were thinking of in the OP is a more complex bit of micromanagement involving rushing (either cash or whip), as well as switching between unit and improvement builds, and running engineers. Basically there is a bug connecting all these things which can be used to generate free shields. Abusing this bug is against HoF and GotM rules.

 

[Raliuven]

If you want to see a pile of money, play a huge board on regent or lower. Get to the GL quick and then turn off research until the AI researches to Education. It will take FOREVER. Meanwhile, focus on expansion. By the time you need to turn research on again, you will be a monster raking in huge gpt and you will have a huge bank. And since you will be able to use some/all of that money to cash rush units while the AI is spending its money on research, you can pretty much push around all of the AI's with your army. At the very least you will have enough to 4-turn your way through most/all of the game.

 

[RickFGS]

That tactic is called short-rushing, you can use it also during "mobilization" and "golden age" in conjunction for crapping units like mad or even buildings if you sign a peace treaty on the exact moment.

It ins´t allowed in ranking games because it´s considered cheating with the build queue mechanics, but i´m no expert and i myself use it when trying to get a sizeable force up.

Lets say you are an average size Republic with an average size army and some mamoth neighbours around, you´ve just reached nationalism and you´re losing the tech race, mobilize against some poor civ on the map and try to trigger your golden age with your UU, all on the same turn, switch all your core cities for troop production, but first short rush some workers here and there, then switch back to a unit, on the next turn do the same process with, say a settler and then switch back to Cavalry for example, voilá! you now have some 4 or 5 cities making Cavalries every other turn, go wild and get your tax slider to 0% Research, repeate the process in some other 2/3 cities, getting the Cav up for some 10 Cavs everyother turn, After your golden age is over (20 turns) your Army should have a nice Stack of Doom ready to eat that mammoth neighbour of yours in no time.

 

[Spoonwood]

It ins´t allowed in ranking games because it´s considered cheating with the build queue mechanics, but i´m no expert and i myself use it when trying to get a sizeable force up.

AFAIK, both XOTM and the HoF allow this.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

yes, it is quite allowed in HOF and XOTM.

What isnt' allowed is breaking into the build queue before the production cycle to do this.

But it's perfectly reasonable to do what he describes.

A way to refine that, btw, and get everything a turn earlier, is to disband a unit in that city the first turn and then rush the worker and switch it over.

Gradual building like that is a useful skill to learn, because you can use it to poprush buildings like cathedrals that you might not be able to do without it.

 

[shl7070]

In gold rushing it makes no difference in the ultimate amount of gold spent, and who said one need to rush something every turn. If the expensive building needs to be rushed it is usually a sign that the city is corrupt and the building will not make much difference. In any case significant treasury is important in the case of war, then there is a real need for rushing.

 

[vorlon_mi]

If the expensive building needs to be rushed it is usually a sign that the city is corrupt and the building will not make much difference.

Thanks for the You make a good point, for libraries, banks, and other buildings which serve to multiply the city's output. A 95% corrupt city will not make enough uncorrupted beakers or coins to justify the building.

The case is a little different for a harbor or marketplace, which have additional effects. Consider a coastal town, very corrupt. A harbor will increase the food output of coastal tiles, and is not affected by corruption. If that town has a river running through it, it could grow larger than size 6 without building an aqueduct. But I might consider rushing a marketplace for the happiness multiplier effect, not for the increased commerce. The harbor mentioned above would help ensure that this town has access to luxury resources, and I can use scientist to turn it into a science farm.

 

[Raliuven]

Thanks for the You make a good point, for libraries, banks, and other buildings which serve to multiply the city's output. A 95% corrupt city will not make enough uncorrupted beakers or coins to justify the building.

The case is a little different for a harbor or marketplace, which have additional effects. Consider a coastal town, very corrupt. A harbor will increase the food output of coastal tiles, and is not affected by corruption. If that town has a river running through it, it could grow larger than size 6 without building an aqueduct. But I might consider rushing a marketplace for the happiness multiplier effect, not for the increased commerce. The harbor mentioned above would help ensure that this town has access to luxury resources, and I can use scientist to turn it into a science farm.

I think the question in this case is why you are worrying about happiness in the example city. If it is 95% corrupt, then population is only good for pushing out new workers/settlers and creating taxmen or beakers. Once you create the taxman/beaker, it automatically fights unhappiness. Workers/Settler production will help keep the population down. Most size 12 cities that are farms don't require marketplaces - or harbors. Better to push out settlers or workers if that is what you need then to rush a harbor/marketplace, which seems counterproductive whether you are expending slaves or gold.

I could see rushing one harbor (or a select few if you are worried about trade lines) to connect to luxuries.

To sum it up - if the city is 95% corrupt, then balance it with taxmen/beakers. If it moves towards unhappiness, then limit its growth until the problem fixes itself (adding more luxuries, etc.)