Rushing a Library in Pherris

[Falcon02]

But the majority of those who voted do. It's not Eyrei's fault if they don't vote, or if they've left the game.

I support Eyrei's decision completely. Without that Libary Pherris won't be as good as an Immortal factory it will be with the growth. However, the flood plain is a priority at the moment for growth, but after that we should be able to get sheilds for building soldiers. And we need Soldier factories now, esp. with the offensive in America.

Because it was whiped over a domestic issue (production and growth) it was within Eyrei's right to request the whip.

 

[donsig]

I support Eyrei's decision completely. Without that Libary Pherris wouldn't have been as good an Immortal factory as it is now. And we need Soldier factories NOW, esp. with the offensive in America.
Because it was whiped over a domestic issue (production and growth) it was within Eyrei's right to request the whip.

Falcon02, first you say we needed the library for military reasons ('we need Soldier factories NOW') then you say it was eyrei's right to request the library be whipped because it was 'a domestic issue (production and growth)'. the latter isn't even with-in the domestic leader's domain ACCORDING TO THE CONSTITUTION:

Point 8: Domestic leader: make's decission's about settler allocation ,wonder building ,city queue's etc.Is the gouvernor of the first province.decide's on the Science/Lux/tax rate's.maintain's the budget of the nation.

The constitution plainly gives the governor authority to make production descisions in his or her cities with provisions for presidential and cabinet over-rulings. The governor was never consulted in this case because no one would even acknowledge there was a governor other than eyrei!

Falcon02 you are free to support eyrei's action (as military deputy and/or citizen) but please do not argue that the choice was his to make when it clearly was not.

Anyway, I am getting discouraged about participating in this whole endeavor. I have tried to make constructive suggestions and spark constructive debates but very little of the discussion that is done beforehand is turned into action at the turn chat. I have now tried to show how the concepts behind the constitution are not clearly defined in that document.

And what do I have to show for it all? An eyrei-donsig debate of huge proportions that is getting nowhere.

 

[Falcon02]

it was growth and production with military concequences.

Anyway, he put it into the hands of the people, rather late however which made the poll near useless, sorry to say. But we really can't have a poll EVERYTIME we rush build. The purpose of the rush justifies the people who have the most say, IMHO. In this case it was Domestic, (growth), which I supported because of the potential for Military benifits (production).

It seemed to me that you seemed to be more arguing that Eyrei DIDN'T have the power to make such a recommendation. (since he didn't implement it GF did (I'm not trying to pass blame here), with majority support in the chat) I don't remember you stating you wanted the Constitution to be more specific, which I can understand. However, a 10 page detailed document that covers everything could discourage some from joining because they don't want THAT much to read.

 

[donsig]

it was growth and production with military concequences

Yes, it was, neither of which makes it the domestic leader's call. I do not know how to make my point any clearer than to quote the domestic leader's duties according to the constitution. Here it is again:

Point 8: Domestic leader: make's decission's about settler allocation ,wonder building ,city queue's etc.Is the gouvernor of the first province.decide's on the Science/Lux/tax rate's.maintain's the budget of the nation.

'Growth and production' issues are not the listed among the domestic leader's duties. If you all think they should be then rewrite the constitution!

 

[Falcon02]

Point 9: Governors: Elected by the people to control production in cities of their province.

And The Domestic Leader is the governor of the first province. I know Skilord is now the governor over Pherris, but at the time Skilord was unavalible and we were talking so much about Geographic providences that build order got essentially thrown out. But since the Geographic provinces has taken longer to decide that was expected Eyrei has said that the original plan will be what's used until the geographic lay out is planned. But once again Eyrei didn't FORCE anyone to do it. He suggested it and then most people agreed with the whip.

By the fact that it wasn't for a cultural purpose only shows that the Cultural leader wasn't where "the bill stops"

 

[donsig]

But since the Geographic provinces has taken longer to decide that was expected Eyrei has said that the original plan will be what's used until the geographic lay out is planned.

One of us has a serious misunderstanding about how constitutions work. I brought up the concept of gepgraphical provinces well before the governor election was decided. There was much talk about geographical provinces but no formal action taken by the cabinet. How this debate came to equal a governor without a province I'll never know. Since no formal action was taken on the proposal we go back to the constitution and do what it says we don't leave everyting up in the air. Why not? Because it leads to ambiguities in the division of authority which lead to endless debates like this! And I know I'm prolonging the debate but I cannot let your remarks go by unanswered. We do not need eyrei to 'ok' going back to the 'original plan'!

But once again Eyrei didn't FORCE anyone to do it. He suggested it and then most people agreed with the whip.

Most people did not agree with it unless you call a 5-4 poll vote (out of 69 possible votes) 'most people'. Go back and read the chat log.

By the fact that it wasn't for a cultural purpose only shows that the Cultural leader wasn't where "the bill stops"

Two points:

1) The library wasn't for scientific purposes since we're on 0% science rate. It was for expansion an area the constitution gives to the cultural leader. Does the cultural leader have the authority to veto a cultural building or is his duty merely to point out when we DO need to build for culture?

2) If the library was for military purposes (an immortal factory) then the military leader (deputy?) could have called for it and the current city production over-ridden with 'enough' cabinet support.

I am not so worried about the descision that was made but the way in which it was made. If the military department had called for the library and then gotten cabinet support for the change then none of this constitutional debate would have happened!

 

[Cyc]

Bravo Donsig. All of it is well stated. I feel for you in that no one seems to hear what you've said. Personally, i am very impressed with the debate so far and feel i need to make a couple of points. The Province consideration - debate went on for quite a while with GOOD citizen interest. There were glossy 8 by 10's left and right with colors and arrows, and a wide variety of opinions. but nothing was ever done with it because eyrei didn't need it. But if eyrei wakes up in the morning of the chat deciding he wants to pop rush an improvement that might not sit well with everyone, he can railroad it through on greased wheels. And nobody cares. He's done it all game. And nobody sees. Well, maybe some of us. Sorry eyrei, the time has come. you are an excellent politician, I guess i just don't like politicians. Or maybe I like Democracy too much. I think there were two strong points in there. Yes, let's bring the provincial boundries discussion to fruition and let's stop railroading issues.

 

[Falcon02]

I brought up the concept of gepgraphical provinces well before the governor election was decided. There was much talk about geographical provinces but no formal action taken by the cabinet. How this debate came to equal a governor without a province I'll never know. Since no formal action was taken on the proposal we go back to the constitution and do what it says we don't leave everyting up in the air. Why not? Because it leads to ambiguities in the division of authority which lead to endless debates like this! And I know I'm prolonging the debate but I cannot let your remarks go by unanswered. We do not need eyrei to 'ok' going back to the 'original plan'!

Agreed. but sadly the first 5 rule was put aside, by nearly everybody, until you brought it back up (and it was good you brought it back up) since the geographic rulings were taking so long. Skilord asked for his province to be defined, since we're planning on geographical ones. And so he waited, for the decision.

Most people did not agree with it unless you call a 5-4 poll vote (out of 69 possible votes) 'most people'. Go back and read the chat log.

The reasoning for that is that Eyrei wanted at least some sort of vote, he apologized for the late notice, and told me he will likely never do it again. But, he wanted some voice from the people, sadly it wasn't conclusive, and couldn't have been because of the time. And with your 64 vote point. If there's enough time allowed for voting 1-2 days and more (in this case there wasn't) then the majority that voted (no matter the total of registered users) win. Because many people aren't active in the game, or leave the game in the middle.

Below is from the Chat, I tried to cut down the size and not to leave out any qoutes important and related. If you find qoutes from the chat that I've missed and help prove your point, post them.

<eyrei> the main change is library in Pherris, to be rushed
[Cut]
<sike> you will get knifed one day eyrei
<eyrei> hehe
<eyrei> it is for the good of phoenatica
[cut]
<sike> worthless poll
<eyrei> library in pherris poll
<theGreyFox> 8 to 6
<eyrei> ihehe
<BenjaminMiller> ah, library.
<Immortal-Logging> 9-6 now, including me
<eyrei> it will be good
<BenjaminMiller> gotta love tipping the scales at the last moment
[cut]
<eyrei> more culture
<sike> your manner of play is low handed eyrei
[cut]
<sike> libraries are good
<eyrei> i honestly did not think of it until today
<sike> not the quick poll
<eyrei> i do apologize
[cut]
<eyrei> it was not intentional
[cut]
<sike> sure
[cut]
<sike> yer gonna pop eyr too?
<eyrei> no
[cut (long time till actual event)]
<theGreyFox> I’m gonna Rush the Library now
<eyrei> ok
<sike> keep spearman in eyr

Cyc (sike) never made any true complaint saying not to do it. He insulted eyrei, assumably in jest, and a made clear complaint about the lateness of the poll. But not a clear one on the Libary, if he had you might have a case. And while I'm going over the log, I see NO ONE, make a clear compliant about the Library. Everyone that voiced a clear opinion seems to be showing support, and cyc never protested.

If cyc had complained, you might have a point, but he didn't.

Also, the Cultural leader's job is to INCREASE our cultural value, that's why he has those responcibilitis..

"The Cultural leader can override gouvernor's decission's for the construction of cultural improvement's. "

This clause is for the point that the Cultural leader can tell a governor to stop building a wall, courthouse, etc. to build a cultural improvement.

Any Cultural leader who vetoed the building of a cultural improvement, based on "cultural" reasons (his territory"), rather than the practical would be likely impeached, because it wouldn't make sence.

BTW: I don't think either of us have a misunderstanding on how the Consitution works, we just differ on the interpretation.

I'm tempted to stop this, but like you, I can't leave things unawnsered that I disagree with, esp. once I've enter the argument. Before I actually enter it, it's easier to ignore.

 

[donsig]

It's a terrible endless debate but I must go on for my country!

but sadly the first 5 rule was put aside, by nearly everybody,

We just can't 'put aside' part of the constitution! Section D, point 3 outlines the procedure for a 'rule change'. Even that clause is subject to interpretation since it is not clearly stated whether the cabinet or the citizens vote on the rule change!

Cyc has really cut to the chase here and perhaps I should put aside the constitutional arguments for a bit.

First of all I don't see sike/Cyc insulting eyrei nor do I recall that happening. (I was in the chat room at the time. I try to keep my comments to a minimum while there since I am a mere citizen.) I took Cyc's 'knife' remark as his way of warning eyrei of the political fallout that would occur one day if he persists in pushing his own agenda through. And, yes, I have noticed that before this particular incident. I still see it in eyrei's insistance on building a barracks in Eyr. He is governor of Eyr and it is his choice to pick what is built though I do disagree with him in this instance. If he insists on building the barracks in Eyr next then he would do well to get the backing of General Charis and make his descision public well before the turn chat so any objections can be raised beforehand and dealt with so other matters can be attended to. That would certainly preclude any debate (constitutional or otherwise) after the fact.

 

[Cyc]

Just to clarify (i hate explaining my jokes), the "knifed" comment was in reference to Julius Caesar's demise. I thought at the time it fit. Althought the clip from the chat didn't clearly show it, my problem wasn't with the library, it was the manner with which our Domestic Leader handled the issue

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by donsig
I still see it in eyrei's insistance on building a barracks in Eyr. He is governor of Eyr and it is his choice to pick what is built though I do disagree with him in this instance.

I changed my mind on this due to the recomendations of several citizens and cabinet members, and new information regarding the military situation to the south. This was posted in the thread I opened about the garrison in Fox's Nest.

The Province consideration - debate went on for quite a while with GOOD citizen interest. There were glossy 8 by 10's left and right with colors and arrows, and a wide variety of opinions. but nothing was ever done with it because eyrei didn't need it. But if eyrei wakes up in the morning of the chat deciding he wants to pop rush an improvement that might not sit well with everyone, he can railroad it through on greased wheels. And nobody cares. He's done it all game. And nobody sees. Well, maybe some of us. Sorry eyrei, the time has come. you are an excellent politician, I guess i just don't like politicians. Or maybe I like Democracy too much. I think there were two strong points in there. Yes, let's bring the provincial boundries discussion to fruition and let's stop railroading issues.

I am not sure what you are basing any of this on, and I am not sure why you take this so personally. You seem to be one of a very few that believe this. You say 'nobody sees'. Maybe they simply see no problem with it. The next time I want to pop-rush something, I intend to post the poll immediately after the last turn. If that is not good enough for you, I don't really know what to say.

Maybe we need to revise and elaborate on the constitution. For the time being, however, I do not intend to be hamstrung by an ambiguous document. In my opinion, pop-rushing, regardless of the situation, should be in the hands of the domestic department (the domestic leader and the governors). A poll should be opened at least 24 hours before the turns are to be played. Would someone please turn this into a viable amendment that the cabinet can vote on, as I am sure if I do it, it will turn into an extension of this debate?

Finally, I am getting really tired of being told I violated the constitution every time I do something. I am generally very cooperative with the other departments, and have only this once done something mostly on my own. It is debatable that it was within my power, but there was also nothing telling me it was beyond my power. Considering very few can argue that my action to rush that library was a mistake for the empire, so I would hope that my promise to follow the correct protocols next time should be enough to end this debate.

 

[Cyc]

thank you eyrei for helping me with my point. you quoted both donsig and i in your statement. he was talking about the barracks in eyr and i had definitely stated what my statement was about at the end of it. you, on the other hand talk about pop rushing and the constitutionality of it and how you will not be hamstrung by a poorly written document. it's all double talk. if you had really wanted to address what i as Cultural Minister was talking about, you would have dropped your power issue of pop rushing and my veto attempt of the library days ago. do you even remember what we talked about originally? does it matter? you've made your statement and now you don't want to address the original concern because you've had the debate twisted into a different issue. fine. lets drop it. it's really not worth our time.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Cyc
But if eyrei wakes up in the morning of the chat deciding he wants to pop rush an improvement that might not sit well with everyone, he can railroad it through on greased wheels. ... Yes, let's bring the provincial boundries discussion to fruition and let's stop railroading issues.

Again, Cyc, I am not sure what you are talking about, and it seems the double talk is coming from you. I directly addressed donsig's concern about Eyr's production of a barracks rather than a spearman, as I had already stated in another thread that I actually agreed with him on that.

You mentioned pop-rushing in your post! That is why I addressed it again.

Further, I already stated my position on provincial boundaries, and agreed Skilord should begin governing Pherris and Civanatoria, as they are the 6th and 7th cities in another thread.

It seems to me that you have become unreasonably obsessed with damaging my reputation. Do you want my job? I am beginning to think that is the problem here, not my 'railroading' of issues. This is becoming ridiculous, and I am sure it does not sit well with the citizenry.

 

[donsig]

. Originally posted by eyrei
I directly addressed donsig's concern about Eyr's production of a barracks rather than a spearman, as I had already stated in another thread that I actually agreed with him on that.

Actually, my proposal was a bit more involved eyrei. I propose Eyr switch from a barracks to a spearman now. The spearman would be done in 3 turns. That unit would then go to defend Fox Next. After building the spearman Eyr should build a settler. While that is being built the immortal in Pherris should start towards Fox Nest. The immortal can arrive in 7 turns (it must wait for the Pherris spearman to finish in 2 turns). By then the settler in Eyr is almost done so the spearman (or even the warrior currently in Fox Nest) goes back to Eyr to escort the settler to the NW territory to found a city in order to put down the barbarian activity that cost us two workers.

My proposal is like a package deal that tries to accomplish two things (beef up the capitol's defenses and snuff out the NW barbarians). Eyrei's thread is about part of the proposal (beefing up Fox Nest's defenses) and only addresses part of that (eyrei is silent in that thread about transferring the immortal currently in Pherris).

What does the building of a barracks accomplish now?

What does the military department think about all of this?

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by donsig


Actually, my proposal was a bit more involved eyrei. I propose Eyr switch from a barracks to a spearman now. The spearman would be done in 3 turns. That unit would then go to defend Fox Next. After building the spearman Eyr should build a settler. While that is being built the immortal in Pherris should start towards Fox Nest. The immortal can arrive in 7 turns (it must wait for the Pherris spearman to finish in 2 turns). By then the settler in Eyr is almost done so the spearman (or even the warrior currently in Fox Nest) goes back to Eyr to escort the settler to the NW territory to found a city in order to put down the barbarian activity that cost us two workers.

My proposal is like a package deal that tries to accomplish two things (beef up the capitol's defenses and snuff out the NW barbarians). Eyrei's thread is about part of the proposal (beefing up Fox Nest's defenses) and only addresses part of that (eyrei is silent in that thread about transferring the immortal currently in Pherris).

What does the building of a barracks accomplish now?

What does the military department think about all of this?

Ahh. I am getting a little confused here. I just posted a poll, and unfortunately left out the settler option, thinking Eyr was to build units for a while. I would prefer that Khatovar make the settlers, as it has pretty low produciton, and is perfectly suited for that. Eyr, once it is allowed to grow, should have a pretty high production. I will see if one of the mods can add the settler option to the poll. As far as moving units, that is completely up to the military department, as I have enough on my hands right now.

 

[SKILORD]

Pherris is in my province as the constitution stands right now. and i support the rush build of this improvement greatly. sounds great.

libraries are good