Rush's Religion Rebalance 1.1

[RushSecond]

So it's no secret that religious beliefs are a little lacking in this game. Many who play multiplayer don't even bother getting a religion since it's not worth the effort. Holy sites are also one of the worst districts to get since it just gives faith to spread your religion for really minor benefits.

This mod improves the situation by adding new beliefs and changing some old beliefs to give very strong effects and give you a good reason to make holy sites. The new buildings in particularly are incredibly strong and will encourage you to build a holy site if you can get good enough adjacency for it.

Spoiler Building Belief Changes :

Cathedral: +3 faith, +1 amenity, 3 art slots (any kind), 2 great artist points
Gurdwara: +3 faith, +2 housing, bonus food from adjacency bonus of the holy site
Meeting House: +3 faith, +2 great engineer points, bonus production from adjacency bonus of the holy site
Mosque: +3 faith, +25% combat experience for all units trained in this city, bonus culture from adjacency bonus of the holy site
Pagoda: +3 faith, +1 amenity, applies to all your cities within 6 tiles
Synagogue: +3 faith, +2 great merchant points, +1 trade route
Wat: +3 faith, +2 great scientist points, bonus science from adjacency bonus of the holy site

Spoiler Other Changes :

Follower Beliefs:

Divine Inspiration: Wonders provide +3 faith, science, and culture (improved from +4 faith)
Feed The World: Shrines and Temples each provide +3 food and +1 housing (improved from +2 food from shrine and +4 from temple)
Religious Community: All specialty districts (other than Holy Sites) gain a +3 adjacency bonus of its respective type when adjacent to at least one Holy Site.

Founder Beliefs:

Lay Ministry: Each Holy Site or Theater Square district in a city following this Religion provides +2 faith or +2 culture respectively. (up from +1 from each)
Stewardship: Each Campus or Commercial Hub district in a city following this Religion provides +2 science or +2 gold respectively. (up from +1 from each)

Note about adjacency bonuses: this uses the same effect as Arabia's unique building, Madrasa, except this mod copies the faith bonus into a new resource. Interestingly, this also applies to faith gained from religious city-states. So a holy site with +3 adjacency bonuses and +6 more faith from city-states would have +9 total, and would also give +9 yields to any building that uses that adjacency. For now I'll just say this is totally intended.

As always, let me know what you think, and post here if there's any bugs so I can fix it.

 

[Kurobane]

Very nice so far

 

[Babarigo]

From what I see your mod looks really nice and there is interesting ideas. I'll give it try.

 

[Cosmic Fox]

I will try it, religion is a bit off in the game. Need to address the insane missionary and apostle spam by the AI omg that is annoying. Tell them stop influencing my cities, a few turns later they do it again.

Keep on making the game better!

 

[Rafein]

Question/Suggestion. Would it be possible, whether through a Policy or Holy site Specific building, to come up with a way to "convert" Holy person generation to another type of great person? Right now, once you get a Great Prophet, or the last prophet is claimed, those points are completely wasted. Would help the Holy site a bit if you could convert those Great Person points

Not sure if it would be possible, but was thinking of a building, something like the Barracks/Stables, where if you have one, you cannot choose another. Each building would add +2 faith, and +2 to the specific stat, IE, culture, Science, gold, ect. While also generating +2 great person points toward that stat. Could make them Cathedrals. Cathedral of Science, Cathedral of Trade, ect. Maybe have it in the Tech with Theocracy, with Shrine/temple prereq.

 

[NameArleadyUsed]

Question/Suggestion. Would it be possible, whether through a Policy or Holy site Specific building, to come up with a way to "convert" Holy person generation to another type of great person? Right now, once you get a Great Prophet, or the last prophet is claimed, those points are completely wasted. Would help the Holy site a bit if you could convert those Great Person points

Great idea.
I think that it could be nicely done by adding bonus to religious buildings:

• Wat converting Prophet points into Scientist points
  
• Cathedral converting Prophet points into Artist points
• Meeting House: Engineer
• Synagogue: Merchant
• Mosque: General
  
• Pagoda: Admiral (or Musician - but I would prefer not having ability to gain GM points soo early in game, it would be overpowered)
  
• Gurdwara: Writer?

Can also be done as separate mod.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Note about adjacency bonuses: this uses the same effect as Arabia's unique building, Madrasa, except this mod copies the faith bonus into a new resource. Interestingly, this also applies to faith gained from religious city-states. So a holy site with +3 adjacency bonuses and +6 more faith from city-states would have +9 total, and would also give +9 yields to any building that uses that adjacency. For now I'll just say this is totally intended.

Well, i fear that could make those religious buildings pretty OP. +9 science would be the same as a University + Research lab, food would give you the same as a late-game internal trade route (and the same building gives you +2 housing), production gives you the same amount as all 3 IZ buildings (minus the area effect of course) and culture is almost the total culture output of normal buildings in a city (before great works you can only get +10 with monument + all Theater Square buildings).
The cathedral by comparison is terribly underpowered. Even with +2 GA points you'll never fill those 3 slots/cathedral. Adding GA points to the cathedral is a nice idea, it would already be much better this way (keeping it's single slot) as early GA are the more likely to give you religious art so the faster you acquire those points, the better. It's just that with CS effect, the "yields" buildings can be incredibly strong.

Question/Suggestion. Would it be possible, whether through a Policy or Holy site Specific building, to come up with a way to "convert" Holy person generation to another type of great person?

I don't think it's possible without Lua coding, and so far we haven't found a reliable way to load Lua mods except for those affecting the UI.
Adding GP points is easy, converting them not so.

 

[Rafein]

Well, i fear that could make those religious buildings pretty OP. +9 science would be the same as a University + Research lab, food would give you the same as a late-game internal trade route (and the same building gives you +2 housing), production gives you the same amount as all 3 IZ buildings (minus the area effect of course) and culture is almost the total culture output of normal buildings in a city (before great works you can only get +10 with monument + all Theater Square buildings).
The cathedral by comparison is terribly underpowered. Even with +2 GA points you'll never fill those 3 slots/cathedral. Adding GA points to the cathedral is a nice idea, it would already be much better this way (keeping it's single slot) as early GA are the more likely to give you religious art so the faster you acquire those points, the better. It's just that with CS effect, the "yields" buildings can be incredibly strong.

I don't think it's possible without Lua coding, and so far we haven't found a reliable way to load Lua mods except for those affecting the UI.
Adding GP points is easy, converting them not so.

Was not really going for a conversion, but more of a building, after Temple, that provided great person points, and maybe +2, in the profession you want. Can only build one in a district, like Stable/Barracks. Think it would probably work better with the unmodified builds this mods provides. Might try my hand at something along those lines.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Was not really going for a conversion, but more of a building, after Temple, that provided great person points

Well, now that i think about it, as long as you don't go for straight conversion, maybe (probably) something could be done using a modifier of type MODIFIER_SINGLE_CITY_DISTRICTS_ADJUST_GREAT_PERSON_POINTS (this is the modifier type used by the Oracle wonder) to add GPP directly to the Holy Site district. Modifiers seem very flexible and use some equally flexible Requirements. The downside is we are still early in the understanding of all those. Probably it would be possible to create a requirement for having founded a religion (if there isn't already one).

This would in theory allow adding points toward a single or several GP to the Holy Site based on the presence of a Shrine and/or Temple. Allowing a choice of what GP to gain points would be harder. Maybe tying this to Follower Beliefs (Jesuit Education gives Scientists, Lay Ministry Artists, Stewardship Merchants ...

Would have to look further.

 

[RushSecond]

Thanks for the responses everyone!

Question/Suggestion. Would it be possible, whether through a Policy or Holy site Specific building, to come up with a way to "convert" Holy person generation to another type of great person? Right now, once you get a Great Prophet, or the last prophet is claimed, those points are completely wasted. Would help the Holy site a bit if you could convert those Great Person points

Not sure if it would be possible, but was thinking of a building, something like the Barracks/Stables, where if you have one, you cannot choose another. Each building would add +2 faith, and +2 to the specific stat, IE, culture, Science, gold, ect. While also generating +2 great person points toward that stat. Could make them Cathedrals. Cathedral of Science, Cathedral of Trade, ect. Maybe have it in the Tech with Theocracy, with Shrine/temple prereq.

That's what I tried to do with some of the buildings. Wats give a Great Scientist point and Meeting Houses give a Great Engineer point. If that's not enough, I could have these buildings give 2 points instead of 1 (add change the amenity of Synagogues to Great Merchant points) and also could increase the cost of those buildings slightly so they aren't too much stronger than the ones that don't give great people points. I'd rather not give every building Great People points since A) that homogenizes these a bit too much for my liking, and B) giving Great General and Great Admiral points doesn't make a whole lot of sense (since most religions advocate peace and love for fellow man)

Well, i fear that could make those religious buildings pretty OP. +9 science would be the same as a University + Research lab, food would give you the same as a late-game internal trade route (and the same building gives you +2 housing), production gives you the same amount as all 3 IZ buildings (minus the area effect of course) and culture is almost the total culture output of normal buildings in a city (before great works you can only get +10 with monument + all Theater Square buildings).
The cathedral by comparison is terribly underpowered. Even with +2 GA points you'll never fill those 3 slots/cathedral. Adding GA points to the cathedral is a nice idea, it would already be much better this way (keeping it's single slot) as early GA are the more likely to give you religious art so the faster you acquire those points, the better. It's just that with CS effect, the "yields" buildings can be incredibly strong.

It may seem really OP, but there's a huge downside to these buildings and that is you have to have a holy site district with a shrine and temple built, which means you didn't build a different district. Getting a decent holy site adjacency bonus and using envoys on those religious city states for that +9 science is nice, but you could also have just built a campus and spent those envoys in a science city-state instead, and it's arguable which is the better choice. Also these buildings aren't unlocked automatically, you have to get a religion and evangelize it (or take someone else's religion and accept that they getting better bonuses for spreading it and/or accept the risk they may win religiously). All of this gives reasons to make these buildings incredibly strong for their cost.

I admit that Cathedrals might be a bit weak, though I haven't played through a full game with them to know for sure. I'll probably change it to accept any type of art, not just religious. Another reason they might be weak is that Great Works in general seem pretty weak right now, but that's an issue better solved by a different mod.

 

[agonistes]

How does your mod work with the adjacency bonuses from Dance of the Aurora and such, and how does it work with the policy card that doubles up on the adjacency bonus? If I'm getting +7 from adjacency, then use the policy card to double it to 14, am I actually getting +14 science now from that holy site if it has a Wat? Or +14 production?

 

[RushSecond]

New Update, now with more great people points, more flexible cathedrals, and a bug fix. Luckily I didn't have to fix anything extra with the fall patch.

How does your mod work with the adjacency bonuses from Dance of the Aurora and such, and how does it work with the policy card that doubles up on the adjacency bonus? If I'm getting +7 from adjacency, then use the policy card to double it to 14, am I actually getting +14 science now from that holy site if it has a Wat? Or +14 production?

Sorry for the late response, I wanted to test a bunch of things alongside this. The Scripture policy card (+100% holy site adjacency) really does work that way, although it won't double the bonus from city-states. All buildings that use the adjacency bonus will copy the full amount after scripture, so yeah, your Dance of the Aurora + Scripture + Wat idea really would end up giving a huge amount of science. I don't think it's that OP though, since there are still better policies than Scripture and you would have to have quite a few holy sites in the middle of tundra to get good mileage out of this.

 

[agonistes]

Sorry for the late response, I wanted to test a bunch of things alongside this.

Ha ha, please, no need to apologize for a late response. You are providing a mod for the community, and my hat is off to you for that.

I really had Russia in mind with my inquiry. Your mod is capable of making Russia a science powerhouse.

you would have to have quite a few holy sites in the middle of tundra to get good mileage out of this.

That specifically.

There might be better cards than Scripture, but maybe not for Russia depending on what your aim is. It might be safer to just boost the wat to like +4 or something, and avoid feeding off the adjacency bonus.

 

[RushSecond]

Well I'm using the adjacency bonus because it's far more interactive and interesting. For example, you'll want to be a bit choosy about holy site locations and only really invest in the ones that give good adjacency bonuses, or use Synagogues, Cathedrals, or Pagodas instead if you don't have very good adjacency. It's not a game mechanic I would want to do away with just because Russia might be a bit OP. A better solution would be to nerf Dance of the Aurora so you can't get +12 faith out of every holy site with scripture.

I usually play on Immortal. Next game I'll try Russia on Deity and see if this really can carry me to victory, and if so, I'll change Dance of the Aurora to something that plays a little more nicely with the mod.

 

[God of Kings]

I have more ideas for religious beliefs:

•Creationism: Increases faith yields, while decreasing science yields
•Moral Panic: Increases faith and production yields, while decreasing culture and gold yields, as well as decreasing amenities (and even tourism)
•Televangelism: Broadcast Centers provide faith and pressure; effects are stronger for American Film Studios

Those three would have to be very powerful to make up for their negatives (Televangelism's negative is that it is applicable late game, as well as buffing the United States a little)

 

[Atlas627]

I've been modding your mod, both to get some modding practice and because I wanted to try my hand at balancing. I noticed in your files that you are unsure if the "+3 for adjacency to at least 1 holy site" works. It does not seem to be in my game, though I did modify it (theoretically all I did was change the value to +2 and make Harbors give food instead of gold, but you know how these things go). Did you ever confirm if it worked?

 

[RushSecond]

Yes it works, I specifically tested it. Remember, it's a follower belief so it works only on districts that belong to a city with that religion.

 

[Atlas627]

Yes it works, I specifically tested it. Remember, it's a follower belief so it works only on districts that belong to a city with that religion.

Yeah, both the Holy Site and Campus are from the city with the religion. There are no beakers listed on the tile and the amount in the city screen indicates there are no extra beakers from the belief.

Is it listed somewhere else?

 

[Atlas627]

Ok so I think it wasn't working because I screwed something up earlier in the file which I added. Now I'm trying to instead use the functions you wrote to add yields to districts regardless of whether they are next to Holy Sites or not. I'm struggling to find where you told it which District was which type. How did you check which District it was before choosing which type of yield to add?

 

[RushSecond]

Ok so I think it wasn't working because I screwed something up earlier in the file which I added. Now I'm trying to instead use the functions you wrote to add yields to districts regardless of whether they are next to Holy Sites or not. I'm struggling to find where you told it which District was which type. How did you check which District it was before choosing which type of yield to add?

The only way to check district types is to use a separate modifier for each district type that needs to be checked. These are the lines I used for requirements. Each requirement set checks if the district is next to a holy site and if its the correct type.

Spoiler :

<!-- requirement sets -->
   <RequirementSets>
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>CAMPUS_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementSetType>REQUIREMENTSET_TEST_ALL</RequirementSetType>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>COMMERCIAL_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementSetType>REQUIREMENTSET_TEST_ALL</RequirementSetType>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>HARBOR_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementSetType>REQUIREMENTSET_TEST_ALL</RequirementSetType>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>INDUSTRIAL_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementSetType>REQUIREMENTSET_TEST_ALL</RequirementSetType>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>THEATER_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementSetType>REQUIREMENTSET_TEST_ALL</RequirementSetType>
       </Row>
   </RequirementSets>

   <RequirementSetRequirements>
       <!-- each requires adjacent to holy site -->
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>CAMPUS_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementId>REQUIRES_PLOT_ADJACENT_HOLY_SITE</RequirementId>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>COMMERCIAL_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementId>REQUIRES_PLOT_ADJACENT_HOLY_SITE</RequirementId>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>HARBOR_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementId>REQUIRES_PLOT_ADJACENT_HOLY_SITE</RequirementId>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>INDUSTRIAL_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementId>REQUIRES_PLOT_ADJACENT_HOLY_SITE</RequirementId>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>THEATER_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementId>REQUIRES_PLOT_ADJACENT_HOLY_SITE</RequirementId>
       </Row>
       
       <!-- district type check -->
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>CAMPUS_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementId>REQUIRES_DISTRICT_IS_CAMPUS</RequirementId>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>COMMERCIAL_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementId>REQUIRES_DISTRICT_IS_COMMERCIAL_HUB</RequirementId>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>HARBOR_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementId>REQUIRES_DISTRICT_IS_HARBOR</RequirementId>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <RequirementSetId>INDUSTRIAL_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementId>REQUIRES_DISTRICT_IS_INDUSTRIAL_ZONE</RequirementId>
       </Row><Row>
           <RequirementSetId>THEATER_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</RequirementSetId>
           <RequirementId>REQUIRES_DISTRICT_IS_THEATER</RequirementId>
       </Row>
   </RequirementSetRequirements>

Then each requirement goes to its respective modifier.

Spoiler :

<!-- city modifier that checks if districts meet the requirements and grants yields -->
       <Row>
           <ModifierId>RELIGIOUS_COMMUNITY_CAMPUS_MODIFIER</ModifierId>
           <ModifierType>MODIFIER_CITY_DISTRICTS_YIELD_CHANGE</ModifierType>
           <SubjectRequirementSetId>CAMPUS_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</SubjectRequirementSetId>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <ModifierId>RELIGIOUS_COMMUNITY_COMMERCIAL_MODIFIER</ModifierId>
           <ModifierType>MODIFIER_CITY_DISTRICTS_YIELD_CHANGE</ModifierType>
           <SubjectRequirementSetId>COMMERCIAL_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</SubjectRequirementSetId>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <ModifierId>RELIGIOUS_COMMUNITY_HARBOR_MODIFIER</ModifierId>
           <ModifierType>MODIFIER_CITY_DISTRICTS_YIELD_CHANGE</ModifierType>
           <SubjectRequirementSetId>HARBOR_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</SubjectRequirementSetId>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <ModifierId>RELIGIOUS_COMMUNITY_INDUSTRIAL_MODIFIER</ModifierId>
           <ModifierType>MODIFIER_CITY_DISTRICTS_YIELD_CHANGE</ModifierType>
           <SubjectRequirementSetId>INDUSTRIAL_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</SubjectRequirementSetId>
       </Row>
       <Row>
           <ModifierId>RELIGIOUS_COMMUNITY_THEATER_MODIFIER</ModifierId>
           <ModifierType>MODIFIER_CITY_DISTRICTS_YIELD_CHANGE</ModifierType>
           <SubjectRequirementSetId>THEATER_ADJACENT_TO_HOLY_SITE</SubjectRequirementSetId>
       </Row>
   </Modifiers>

There's more to it as well, since the modifier arguments need to be set up to actually give the yields, and yet another set of modifiers also needs to be there to check if cities are following the religion. This effect was surprisingly complicated to create. Try downloading my mod again and looking through the un-edited file so you can see exactly all the steps required.