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Russia: A State of Extreme Paranoia?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by amadeus, Jun 3, 2007.

  1. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    And the fact is there is no opponent to the West ;)

    Russia is not in position to start another such "cold" war. It started the last one only because the extreme conditions in Europe after the WW2 (most of the continent was in rubbles and the Red Army occupied half of it).

    Today, Russia is little more than a strong regional power with a lot of nuclear weapons. Furthermore, Russia is not possesed by an ideology seeking world dominance anymore.

    Russia should get back to democratic reforms, stop trying to subvert the young democracies in its neigborhood and then, I am sure we can find a good and mutually beneficial modus vivendi between Europe and Russia.
     
  2. ParkCungHee

    ParkCungHee Deity

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    I am arguing the America side. I'm just arguing the Realpolitik side.
     
  3. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    Only that your Realpolitik is very unrealistic.
     
  4. ParkCungHee

    ParkCungHee Deity

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    It is for America, it just not for the Czechs.
     
  5. Gelion

    Gelion Captain

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    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/06/20070607-7.html

     
  6. nc-1701

    nc-1701 bombombedum

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    Wow, a joint missile defense system... This could be very interesting if it works out.
     
  7. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    It won't, not the GBI part.
     
  8. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Or perhaps Winner is just spewing is ideologically-colored nonsense again.
    It wasn't western european countries that allowed illegal prison camps to be build inside the their borders (but they did choose to ignore it at the time).
    American bases in western europe are being scaled down, and the conditions for their use are controlled, especially now that the cold war has ended. Newer bases in eastern Europe (including Kosovo) will offer a much greater freedom of action to a bellicose american administration (like the current one).
    This increases the risk for european allies of the US to be entangled in some ill-conceived war where the US makes use of european bases.

    No one is looking forward to break that alliance. But it may become the best policy, if the current US policies are kept...

    Oh, is that so? Because both the current french government and the current german government have made it clear, using diplomatic language (a skill some other european governments are still sorely lacking) that they do not approve of the current US plans for the "missile shield".

    The foreign policy of western countries does not really change when governments change, not usually at least. One thing is the political discourse for the electorate, another quite different one is the long-term foreign policy strategy of each country (and they do exist) - to change the last you'd need to replace a lot of skilled (irreplaceable!) personnel in the government apparatus. European weariness of some recent (after 2002) changes in US foreign policy is rooted on what western european governments view as their strategic interests. On the specific case of Russia, keeping good relations with that country is now far more important for those governments than risking collaboration with a dangerous (and likely to fail) american policy of undermining and threatening the russian state whenever possible.

    Will you ever cease making false claims about the IAEA and Iran?
    And about the rest of your claims:

    Press briefing, french Ministry of Foreign Affairs, April 23, 2007
    Press briefings, french Ministry of Foreign Affairs, June 1st:
    Interview with Federal Foreign Minister Steinmeier, June 6th:

     
  9. useless

    useless Social Justice Rogue

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    then it should be placed in AMERICA not czech rep.
     
  10. woody60707

    woody60707 Deity

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    LOL, Even is the Czechs and Pols want it?
     
  11. amadeus

    amadeus Bring back the Civ2 theme!

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    Perhaps we can remove our bases from Germany, too...
     
  12. useless

    useless Social Justice Rogue

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    yes indeed, not like you use them anymore.
     
  13. Lotus49

    Lotus49 Emperor

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    That comment only reveals that you know very little. First review this, and then know (because I'm telling you) that our bases in Germany are the #1 pit-stop location for missions going to the Middle East, plus the primary CASEVAC location where they can receive hospital treatment before coming home.

    Not to mention the U. S. Army V Corps is there, spread out across 'a whole buncha' bases around the southern Rhine & Main rivers area as well as Bavaria. -Where training continues, Army attack helicopters flying around in the Bavarian countryside daily.

    It's your country, man - you should know. We're so well entrenched in the local economy in S. Germany, if we were to suddenly pull out - you'd notice a significant affect on your economy. That same reason is why the Italians don't want us to leave their country, even though they hate our guts. ;)
     
  14. useless

    useless Social Justice Rogue

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    my country? im not german. im here WITH the british forces stationed here! :lol:
     
  15. Lotus49

    Lotus49 Emperor

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    Well, you're IN country then. Still applies. Heck I'm in the other hemisphere and I know all about what's going on at those bases.
     
  16. useless

    useless Social Justice Rogue

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    i dont see or even about the use of any of the american bases as i was told they where all abandened or used by someone else.
     
  17. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    It's not me who's posting wishful thinkings here, it's you.

    Not only they chose to ignore them, they also allowed the CIA planes to land on their own bases and airfields. Anyway, nobody except few people really cares about that.

    Bases in WE are being scaled down because they're not needed so much anymore. New bases in Romania and Bulgaria are better positioned (closer to the Middle East).
    Your second claim is completely unbased, as usual.

    Such as?

    Like I said - certain individuals (like you) would like the US out of Europe completely. And don't say it has anything to do with Bush, it is just the same old (W. )European anti-americanism, which appeared during the Cold War. Americans protected Europe and some Europeans hated it for that.

    They used to say the same things like you do: "US is gonna draw us into war with the peaceful Soviet Union! They're the warmongers, not out comrades in the East!"

    Thank God these 'useful idiots' haven't risen to power.

    Some elements of the French and German (especially German) governments are sceptical, some are not. Still, it's a great improvement compared to their previous "non, non, non/nein, nein, nein" attitude.

    Blah, blah, blah. Save this for some of your comrades.

    Foreign policy of most countries doesn't change rapidly. Not even in case of the US. Bush is not an exception. The change in foreign policy was caused more by the 9/11 than anything else. I am sure Clinton would strike against Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and other countries too, if he was the president.

    Iraq was a mistake and yes, Bush and his people are responsible for this mistake. But mistakes do happen in foreign policy, just see Vietnam (and guess which president sent troops there).

    Previous 'governments' in France (Chirac's people and Schröeder's people) used anti-americanism to gain points. The new governments are less willing to risk good relations with the US.

    What is false about them? Really, tell me. UN Security Council has imposed sanctions on Iran for its nuclear programme, and it acted according to the reports by the IAEA. Iran refused to do what UN SC demanded, which means it is defying it. Pure facts, so stop being ridiculous.
     
  18. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Is it? But you've just justified it: those bases are better positioned for what?
    Certainly not for defending against an attack from the Middle East, as that is, according to the current official line of the White House, best served by those sites in Poland and the Czech Republic :rolleyes:
    Those bases meant for for power projection.

    I've already tried to explain to you that for my own country a rift between the US and a possible future EU military alliance is bad, very bad. I don't allow ideology to color my assessments.
    What Europe should not allow is a new "cold war" (something not as unthinkable as it may now seem) where it would be forced to take the american side, in exchange for essentially nothing.

    You claim that "during the Cold War. Americans protected Europe". That was certainly the purpose of NATO from the europena perspective. But they were also busy backstabbing theyr european allies (as was to be expected). It was after WW2 that the british were forced to relinquish their empire, most of it falling directly into the american sphere of influence (most notably the middle east). So it certainly wasn't an alliance resulting form some simple "american altruism" as you would have it. In fact the US was so busy in 1956 supplanting the remnants of British influence in the Middle East that it readily allowed the USSR to supress what might have been a "native liberation" of Central Europe.
    Is that the ally you'd trust with the independence of your nation? At least France and Britain braved a world war when Poland, a nation they had compromised to defend, was attacked. The US, for all its lip service to freedom, only acts when convenient for its own interests. Not so different form any other state, of course. You should keep that in mind.
    Currently US influence in the world depends it on maintaining the unconditional support of its allies, in Europe and Asia. Its apparent approach to central european countries and provocation against Russia may very well be part of an attempt to corral a possible "EU nation" into remaining as a subservient ally - by creating a common external enemy if necessary.

    The "useful idiots" for the duration of the cold War may very well have been the europeans. As far as we now know there never was a soviet intention of invading and occupying Western Europe, the whole Cold War paranoia was probably avoidable if both sides had been more willing to talk sooner. Churchill created the concept of an "Iron Wall" and helped propagate the idea of a soviet threat, but ignored that even Stalin, arguably the most imperialistic leader of the Soviet Union, abided by the demarcation of the soviet and allied zones decided even before the end of the war.

    The demonization of the Soviet Union and the escalation of the Cold War were probably bad for Europe, but they certainly cemented the preeminent position of the US in the world. In fact without the "foreign threat of the capitalists" as an excuse to justify lack of political freedom and economic problems in the soviet space the political evolution of the Soviet Union to the eventual collapse of communist might have been faster. Communist, after all, fell after relations with the west improved. It would have been impossible to justify the Warsaw pact and soviet imperialism over Central Europe without a foreign menace.

    I'm not saying NATO wasn't useful, it was. Even for those countries, like France, that withdrew from its military component early. But it may have been misused, politically, even during the cold war. Or, rather, used against the best interests of some of its member states.

    Other countries? What other Countries? I home you don't mean Iraq, because we all know there were no terrorists in Iraq before the occupation.
    Mistakes, when they happen, should be acknowledged and corrected. It is my belief (one I won't bother to discuss with you) that Iraq wasn't the mistake it appears to be, that the current situation is the one desired from the start, and the original plan only failed when Iran could not be attacked also.
    Regardless of that, Iraq was about keeping control of the Middle East and its oil, oil on which Europe and Japan (and china) depended. you can guess why some european governments didn't like that. Others joined the invasion so that they could have a share of control over it also, a strategy that apparently failed.

    Give me a quote from one of those reports proving your claims.
     

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