Russia and Rus civilizations thread: suggestions and discussion.

[vovadk]

Translation: I've always wondered, Stierlitz, if there's a limit to your audacity and cynicism.

In other words?
View attachment 743579

 

[Nikas Kunitz]

I remember enjoying learning that its name used to be Tsaritsyn. The -grad suffix makes it stereotypical sounding.

Still -grad/-gorod is not so generic as -sk. Many new cities founded/renamed during Soviet times used this suffix way too much, with good example being dozen of settlements named Sovietsk (SovietTown) throughout Russia, including renamed Tilsit in East Prussia (basically all names in Kaliningrad oblast are these generic Soviet names) and Kukarka in Vyatka region. Also, town on lake Ladoga that used to be part of Finland and used Swedish name Käxholm during Imperial times, was renamed Priozersk (ByLakeTown) when it was finally annexed after WWII, despite the fact that it was founded by Novgorodians and had cool Russian name Korela (Old Russian form of Karelia). Personally, I am for restoring historical and more unique names, while retaining Slavic Russian sound. Like Korolevec or Korolëvgrad instead of both Kaliningrad and Königsberg (with the name becoming translatable, thus being named Königsberg in German and Królewiec in Polish).

 

[Nikas Kunitz]

Stalingrad definitely has the biggest "punch" to its name. It's a legendary city. When I was young, I was confused as to where it was, since the globe (dated 1980) my family had showed the USSR but no Stalingrad. "Tsaritsyn" is the most unique name, but Volgograd is fun to say in my opinion. English and alliterative sounds have a very long history together.

Yeah, due to uniqueness and historicity, I also prefer name Caricyn (Tsaristyn) over both Volgograd and Stalingrad.

 

[AOS9001]

I'm looking forward to trying a new Russia game. St. Basil's now looks remotely achievable instead of impossible, and the wheat spawning 2N of Rostov on the Don in 1750 should be nice.

 

[Dracosolon]

Yeah, I manage to build it now. If anything it's the Cathedral goal that made me sweat a little and I had to revert back to Despotism to whip the remaining Churches. Between expansion, defense against barbarians, espionage and science, the early Russian game has you spinning a lot of plates.

 

[Temujin8k]

- St Basil's Cathedral requires Firearms and Statecraft

Rare moment that Leoreth followed my suggestion! <3

Okay, I've actually tried it out previously (by modding it myself), and I somehow made it work... let's see if I can replicate it again. I might start with Rus again as I've discussed in this thread originall for some more immersion, and to build St. Sophia as well.

 

[banzay13]

Rare moment that Leoreth followed my suggestion! <3

Okay, I've actually tried it out previously (by modding it myself), and I somehow made it work... let's see if I can replicate it again. I might start with Rus again as I've discussed in this thread originall for some more immersion, and to build St. Sophia as well.

It's not a problem now. You need fur to build it (Although deer also was ok)
But New effect not so good, food from merchants was awesome. For cites in not so welcome environment

 

[AOS9001]

I like the new Saint Sophia effect, since you have to fight A LOT of light cavalry in Rus and Russia's game... And by the time you get Statecraft, horse archers and keshiks have stopped spawning, replaced by cuirassiers, so you don't need the free skirmish promotion anymore.

Edit: After a test-run, my old Gunpowder-first strategy is not optimal anymore. I think you need to rush Judiciary to get the Constabularies in all our cities once you do the ostrog and church, because you have a lot of teching to do towards Statecraft. Ironically, a strong Ottomans is actually beneficial to your early game...

 

[Dracosolon]

Ok, I've done a test run of the first two UHV and they're nicely balanced. As always the Kremlin mobility bonus is awesome but you still need to watch out for the many barbarians so your civilians units can't advance east too quickly, you need escorts.

1) Does anyone bother to settle the northern parts of Siberia outside of the resources near the Urals? I keep putting my cities as south as the UHV will allow.

2) On another note, I continue to find Central Planning's improvement boosts a bit confusing: as Russia you're not lacking , but , so farms and windmills make more sense to me, especially if you want a specialist economy. But going all in on low population cities with high might still be the way to go thanks to the bonus to conversion to . Alternatively, go State Party+Public Welfare to count as communist in the late game.

3) St Basil does not obsolete but has a powerful effect associated with your state religion. Maybe it should obsolete to encourage a secular USSR.

4) Really useful to keep Great Statesmen around to improve relations to friendly. I don't even even know how you would get there otherwise outside of peace vassals.

5) My game was surprisingly peaceful in spite of the fact that my western cities were not well defended compared to my neighbors. In general the Russia game is not very warlike outside of early conquest of Rus cities and barbarian spawns.

 

[Temujin8k]

St Basil does not obsolete but has a powerful effect associated with your state religion. Maybe it should obsolete to encourage a secular USSR.

What if we tie St. Basil to Orthodoxy directly instead of the player's state religion?

 

[Temujin8k]

It's not a problem now. You need fur to build it (Although deer also was ok)
But New effect not so good, food from merchants was awesome. For cites in not so welcome environment

Well, I don't want to build it as Russia. I need to channel Russia's first turns to building up eco and mil. And as @AOS9001 said, it's really helpful for UHV2. I, for one, barely run Great Merchants when playing Rus UHV.

 

[Dracosolon]

The St Sophia effect is good though maybe it could obsolete a bit later than Statecraft for Russia to benefit from it for longer. I'd need to redo the Rus UHV to see if I have time to build it, it has some pretty tight deadlines.

 

[Kott]

1) Does anyone bother to settle the northern parts of Siberia outside of the resources near the Urals? I keep putting my cities as south as the UHV will allow.

Obdorsk/Salechard - yes, Vorkuta - probably not worth it on the new map, some resources are just outside of the city reach, Norilsk - I could not find where it is on the new map (I have always settled it on the old map).

 

[banzay13]

Obdorsk/Salechard - yes, Vorkuta - probably not worth it on the new map, some resources are just outside of the city reach, Norilsk - I could not find where it is on the new map (I have always settled it on the old map).

No artic horses (Post in thread 'The "OMG! Look what happened in DoC!" Thread' https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/the-omg-look-what-happened-in-doc-thread.442137/post-16471104 ) and so no Norilsk on New map.
But I'm not disapointed to not see my native city, even on old map it didn't have significant moment for gameplay
Iirc you can settle (if it not under ice, dont remember) Dudinka - I saw this name on map

 

[AOS9001]

Ok, I've done a test run of the first two UHV and they're nicely balanced. As always the Kremlin mobility bonus is awesome but you still need to watch out for the many barbarians so your civilians units can't advance east too quickly, you need escorts.

1) Does anyone bother to settle the northern parts of Siberia outside of the resources near the Urals? I keep putting my cities as south as the UHV will allow.

Yes, including the Urals ones you mention. I like to settle the Siberian railroad cities (Yakterinburg, Tyumen, Omsk, Novosibirsk, Krasnoyarsk, Irkutsk, and Chita [not a Siberian city]), here's all the others not on the route:
Ust-Ilych: has fur, salt, oil, and iron in its fat cross - Pechora 1N adds a coal and can take a deer that Syktyvkar uses (a European Arctic city I found as part of the cathedral goal) but loses out on some grassland and plains hills you can put windmills on.
Obdorsk/Saekhard: jade, oil, deer, arctic coast tiles for food with a harbor.
I often consider a third city to grab the two oil in central Siberia, but that comes into play so late in the game (especially the taiga-locked oil) I often don't.

Kureika: fur, copper, rare earths.
Khamakar: fur, horses.
Vitim: taiga-locked rare earths and gems, third ring of culture can grab a gold and gives access to the lone moorland so workers can build a land route further east.
Yakutsk: coal, deer, taiga-locked gems, two random grasslands for food
Okhotsk: fish, taiga-locked gold. When I get exploration, I send a galleon around the world to settle this city. It gives access to Yakutsk far faster than Vitim.
There is fur and silver further east but I have yet to settle a city in that region. Settlers can't enter tundra unless it's on a coast, and the third ring of Okhotsk' doesn't cross those mountains.Perhaps the intention is to settle Magadan or Evensk to get the silver, but that leaves the fur still out of reach. Not sure it's even worth going after.

Bonus cities:
Magadachi: two furs
Petropavlovsk: whale and taiga-locked obsidian
Khabarovsk: obisidian, deer, taiga-locked iron, decently productive, also a Siberian railroad city
Vladivostok: whale, also a Siberian railroad city. Pretty terrible city actually, Japan culture-locks the Sea of Japan so there's no actual greater Pacific access, Okhotsk can actually let ships go places.
I've never settled Sakhalin but there's a deer and a taiga-locked coal there, so it could be minorly productive.

 

[Nikas Kunitz]

Yes, including the Urals ones you mention. I like to settle the Siberian railroad cities (Yakterinburg, Tyumen, Omsk, Novosibirsk, Krasnoyarsk, Irkutsk, and Chita [not a Siberian city]), here's all the others not on the route...

The Motherland is proud of you, comrade!
The cities are nice and realistic! I think only Kureika plot should be renamed to more historically important Turukhansk, Magdagachi to Albazin (was important location in XVII century only, but there are no really important modern cities on northernmost bend of Amur), and Anadyr can be founded on Chukotka as easternmost, quite symbolic, city.
I really should post my improvement suggestions for Siberia, they are just collecting dust since last winter...
By the way, as you have practical experience with settling all these cities, how feasible the first Russian UHV goal I suggested seems with 1472 starting date, particularly getting continuous territory to Pacific port (most likely Okhotsk) by 1720?

 

[Maggy_domain]

Russia you're not lacking , but

Yeah so I've already said I personally don't like Russia's UP but this should pretty much close the deal: when do you actually have to whip in a Russia game? And in which city?

 

[Dracosolon]

Yeah so I've already said I personally don't like Russia's UP but this should pretty much close the deal: when do you actually have to whip in a Russia game? And in which city?

In all your newer, smaller cities, to get you to the church on time.

 

[AOS9001]

By the way, as you have practical experience with settling all these cities, how feasible the first Russian UHV goal I suggested seems with 1472 starting date, particularly getting continuous territory to Pacific port (most likely Okhotsk) by 1720?

That depends on how many cities Russia gets on spawn. By the time you meet the three cathedrals goal in 1500, you have 12 or 13 cities, several of which are in Siberia (or the Urals - Yekaterinburg, Obdorsk, Tyumen, something on the west side of the mountains too). Once you hit this goal you can start pumping settlers and missionaries easily, the real problem is getting them into position by 1700. So far I've managed this goal every time by the late 1600s, especially if I get exploration early enough to send the galleon around the world to Okhotsk.

If all you have is Moscow in 1472, I don't think it's going to happen... but if Rus has properly settled the Muscovite lands circa 1472 and they all flip? It should be easily doable.

 

[Nikas Kunitz]

That depends on how many cities Russia gets on spawn. By the time you meet the three cathedrals goal in 1500, you have 12 or 13 cities, several of which are in Siberia (or the Urals - Yekaterinburg, Obdorsk, Tyumen, something on the west side of the mountains too). Once you hit this goal you can start pumping settlers and missionaries easily, the real problem is getting them into position by 1700. So far I've managed this goal every time by the late 1600s, especially if I get exploration early enough to send the galleon around the world to Okhotsk.

If all you have is Moscow in 1472, I don't think it's going to happen... but if Rus has properly settled the Muscovite lands circa 1472 and they all flip? It should be easily doable.

Having cities in Siberia and Ural (especially named like Ekaterinburg in XVIII century fashion) in 1500 is really absurd for anyone who is familiar with history of Russia, for me surely. That (unrealistic city placement in unhistorical period) is something what really should remain in the original RFC (just like Germany starting in 840 in Berlin and founding something like Brest-Litowsk), not in DoC, considering the level of historicity this mod aspires to have.
The map you attached is basically the territory that should flip to Russia with 1472 starting date (except little bit along the Volga around Kazan, that ultimately was conquered only in 1550s and has major non-SlavicRussian peoples to this date, like Tatars and Mari, that should be represented by remaining of independent culture on these tiles). Here is the core and flip map from suggestions thread (you might remember it), with dark red line indicating core and pale one indicating flip area.

Spoiler Flip and core areas in Eastern Europe :

As I implemented and tested these changes, I can confirm that Russia flips atleast two cities founded and developed by Rus, usually Novgorod (due to its significance, I made it spawn as independent just before Rus start, so it always flips becoming the second Rus city) and Smolensk, sometimes also Kursk and Yaroslavl, rarely also Nizhny Novgorod (or even Murom one tile west of it). Also, usually, on purpose, Rus founds a city right nearby Moscow, usually Rostov, Suzdal, Vladimir or Ryazan, that is intended to be razed with Russia start. All these cities also lead to Rus atleast somewhat develop lands around, usually atleast the resources have improvements with some roads on time of Russia's birth, with Novgorod and Smolensk having some buildings and Orthodoxy. Meanwhile, south-western Rus cities, like Kiev, Minsk or Polotsk, Lutsk or Terebovl or Lvov, in around 50% of cases are conquered by Poland by Russia's birth in 1472. In other 50% situation is much messier (something like Holy Rome or France capturing Kiev) as often it is in RFCDoC.
I also want to have it possible to see some among Ustyug, Arkhangelsk (as Kholmogory), Vyatka, Kem, Kola and Pustozersk being founded by Rus (representing vast lands of Novgorod republic, with Kem, Kola and Pustozersk being more of strategic outposts than cities), but neither Rus nor Russia want to settle in moorland and taiga, even on coast, only occasionally I see Vologda, and even rarer, Arkhangelsk being founded.
In 1500 AD starting scenario, Russia should have Moskva, Novgorod, Smolensk, Nizhny Novgorod, Vologda, Ustyug (was particularly important city during this time), Kholmogory (Arkhangelsk), Kem, Kola (renames to Murmansk much later) and Pustozersk as starting cities. Yes, 3-4 of these cities are rather outposts along Arctic coast, but that's intentional to solidify historical Russia's presence here and to make sure these cities exist even if AI has troubles founding them, all to provide Russia with its historical core territory around that time. Anyway, they all should have Orthodoxy, Ostrogs ("katorgas", less maintenance and providing additional production to northern cities on moorland and tundra) and some other buildings making them atleast decent contribution to starting position of Russia in 1500 AD scenario, while only Mosvka, Novgorod and Smolensk should be well populated and advanced cities, Nizhny Novgorod, Vologda and Ustyug being mediocre. That's just to paint a picture how Russia should realistically/historically look like in 1500.

Anyway, that's good that settling as far as Okhotsk by XVIII century is actually possible with current RFCDoC. But I wonder how feasible is the first UHV goal I suggested is, with the starting situation I described above...