Russia First Look [Peter]

[gunnergoz]

What I could see is a modified Religious district where instead of Faith you get Gold or Hammers back. Or unit promotions. Or something else.

But honestly you know what I think it should be? The ability to place missile silos in the territory of City States or (borrowing from the CBP) the ability to annex territory owned by someone else. That screams Russia to me. As it is, we're going to have Devout Russia versus Atheistic United States in late game cold wars and it's going to be plain weird. Instead of fearing Russian spies the world will fear infiltrations of its priests. Sounds like a slapstick comedy movie.

If that's the game you want, that's the game you'll play. Right now IRL I see Russia happily rejecting Western culture in large part due to resurgent religious nationalism encouraged by a dictatorial regime that uses spy craft as well as military force to get what it wants, be it territory or just plain influence. As for the "atheistic United States" part of the game, well the US is supposed to be a secular democracy, right? Separation of church and state? Or did I miss the memo about the new national religion? So for the most part, Civ VI looks to me to be able to emulate historical events and trends to a fair degree.

 

[SpaceCommunist]

Right now IRL I see Russia happily rejecting Western culture in large part due to resurgent religious nationalism encouraged by a dictatorial regime that uses spy craft as well as military force to get what it wants, be it territory or just plain influence.

Yup. What was that thing Lenin said, one step forward two steps back? Yeah this is like zero steps forward twelve steps back.

As for the "atheistic United States" part of the game, well the US is supposed to be a secular democracy, right? Separation of church and state? Or did I miss the memo about the new national religion? So for the most part, Civ VI looks to me to be able to emulate historical events and trends to a fair degree.

The United States is considered a secular republic by its constitution. Similarly, North Korea is considered a Democratic People's Republic by its constitution.

If you haven't seen the religious ties between federal/state officials and religious organizations, you've been living in Vermont for too long.

 

[CaiusDrewart]

I many not be a huge fan of the Lavra mechanically, but I gotta say I've always been a fan of Russian architecture and seeing the image of the Lavra in game on the blog post I'll love having bunches of those all over my empire, they look so nice.

Good point. I'd guess this is the main reason the developers picked the Lavra. This building means that Russia will immediately look distinctively Russian, with those vibrantly colored onion domes in most of their cities. That wouldn't be the case if they had instead given Russia a research laboratory UB or something like that.

 

[SpaceCommunist]

Good point. I'd guess this is the main reason the developers picked the Lavra. This building means that Russia will immediately look distinctively Russian, with those vibrantly colored onion domes in most of their cities. That wouldn't be the case if they had instead given Russia a research laboratory UB or something like that.

Japan's Electronics Factory doesn't look very distinctively Japanese, though. I'd rather have a unique infrastructure that looks meh but functions great instead of one that looks great but functions meh

 

[CaiusDrewart]

Japan's Electronics Factory doesn't look very distinctively Japanese, though. I'd rather have a unique infrastructure that looks meh but functions great instead of one that looks great but functions meh

Oh, I agree. The Lavra looks great but is a dubious choice for Russia flavor-wise and has almost nothing to offer gameplay-wise. I'd rather they changed it. I bet it was the allure of the onion domes that made them put it in, though.

 

[Gehennas]

I think that Peter's LUA is perfect from the historical point of view. However, we need to know more about exact numbers.
Cossaks - they are okay... But I think that it would be cool to see a finally new Russian UU. Russia had Cossacs instead of cavalry since Civ III. I believe every other civilization had different UUs in Civilization series.
Lavra - the orthodox church was important at almost every period of Russian history, so I don't mind the religiour UD. However, it is pretty weak.
But the UA makes no sense at all. First of all it makes lavra even less valuable. Secondly, I don't get why Russia should get any kind of bonuses from tundra as tundran cities here are mostly underdeveloped and exist as hubs for natural resource mining.

 

[JuhQman]

I think that Peter's LUA is perfect from the historical point of view. However, we need to know more about exact numbers.
Cossaks - they are okay... But I think that it would be cool to see a finally new Russian UU. Russia had Cossacs instead of cavalry since Civ III. I believe every other civilization had different UUs in Civilization series.
Lavra - the orthodox church was important at almost every period of Russian history, so I don't mind the religiour UD. However, it is pretty weak.
But the UA makes no sense at all. First of all it makes lavra even less valuable. Secondly, I don't get why Russia should get any kind of bonuses from tundra as tundran cities here are mostly underdeveloped and exist as hubs for natural resource mining.

I think the UA makes a lot of sense. The first part gives tonnes of land, which is very Russian in the sense of controlling thi biggest land area in the world without the population not really being comparable to it. The second part is more about gameplay (even though it could be argued that faith from tundra has to do with the ancient tribes that lived in the area we now know as Russia). Food in the civ franchise works very differently than in the real world and my guess is that it was a design choice to make sure you could sustain the cities found in those rough areas.

 

[Vasire]

I think that from a gameplay point of view Russia will be very compatible. I see big strong cities built on the border between Tundra and food-generating tiles.
As for the correctness of Russia's reprsentation. As a Russian it makes me sad to admit that the religious shift in the country’s special features is pretty correct and representative of both old Russia and modern Russia. Devs did their homework.

 

[Martinus]

I have been thinking about it and while it is not obvious at first (mainly because people think of Russia through the prism of communism), I think a religious focus fits Russia very well.

Sure, Russia has not been very spiritual, but it has been very deeply intertwined with organised religion, especially during the imperial era (and now the Putin's neo-imperial era). Russia's claim to an imperial title was based on it being the third Rome (after the fall of Constantinople), which has clear religious connotations - and ever since the fall of Constantinople it has claimed sovereignty over all orthodox nations, and used religious casus belli (e.g. protection of Orthodox minorities in mixed religion countries like Poland) very often. In that it was to Orthodox Christianity what Spain was to Catholicism, and the Orthodox Church has always been one of the strongest pillars of the Russian Imperial throne.

 

[homan1983]

Right now IRL I see Russia happily rejecting Western culture in large part due to resurgent religious nationalism encouraged by a dictatorial regime that uses spy craft as well as military force to get what it wants, be it territory or just plain influence

I think you're mistaking Russia with the US of A, literally everything you said, + police state would seem to naturally fall to America.

 

[qadams]

I think you're mistaking Russia with the US of A, literally everything you said, + police state would seem to naturally fall to America.

We're way off topic, but -- I agree!

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I'm actually proud of Civfanatics for not endlessly critiquing a leader's character model for once.

 

[stealth_nsk]

I'm actually proud of Civfanatics for not endlessly critiquing a leader's character model for once.

Yes, it's too obvious Peter has the wrong helmet. Nothing to discuss here.

 

[gunnergoz]

Any crafty, motivated & daring national leadership can manipulate human frailty & foibles to make decisions that are not in the best interests of its population. Modern media gives them a way to sugar coat the poison pill if they wish. It is the population's choice to succumb or not. Russia is much farther along the path to authoritarianism than is the USA. It also has cultural and historic traditions that make it an easier transition. But both seem to converge in ways, though at different rates. In game terms, you can begin with different UA's and UB's etc and still end up in almost any condition you chose to direct yourself towards.

 

[CoconutTank]

TBH, I wish Peter's bonus was just a flat +1 culture and +1 science per unique trade route to a foreign party. I think that'd still cover Peter's tour of Europe flavor-wise and it wouldn't depend on leeching off of a stronger neighbor. Morocco's bonus in Civ5 was a flat +1 culture per unique trade route to a foreign party and honestly it was not strong; Peter's ability is not only weaker but also self-defeating, which is pretty dumb.

 

[Sonmi]

TBH, I wish Peter's bonus was just a flat +1 culture and +1 science per unique trade route to a foreign party. I think that'd still cover Peter's tour of Europe flavor-wise and it wouldn't depend on leeching off of a stronger neighbor. Morocco's bonus in Civ5 was a flat +1 culture per unique trade route to a foreign party and honestly it was not strong; Peter's ability is not only weaker but also self-defeating, which is pretty dumb.

It's only weaker if you expect to be leading in culture and science both throughout the whole game, and that your neighbours will have followed the exact same tree progression as you did.

I have to say I'm quite a fan of that ability, as it represents Peter's rule of Russia pretty well, as well as being far more flexible than a flat bonus.

 

[CoconutTank]

It's only weaker if you expect to be leading in culture and science both throughout the whole game, and that your neighbours will have followed the exact same tree progression as you did.

I have to say I'm quite a fan of that ability, as it represents Peter's rule of Russia pretty well, as well as being far more flexible than a flat bonus.

It certainly is more gradient? But I don't see how it's more flexible, particularly since I can't use it when I'm ahead in science/culture, only when I'm behind. If I want to be making use of it, I basically have to be over emphasizing other priorities. That doesn't seem flexible to me.

In retrospect, making the culture/science a flat bonus is probably not strategically exciting either; just send as many trade routes as you can. But at least it would be useful anytime.

 

[Sonmi]

It certainly is more gradient? But I don't see how it's more flexible, particularly since I can't use it when I'm ahead in science/culture, only when I'm behind. If I want to be making use of it, I basically have to be over emphasizing other priorities. That doesn't seem flexible to me.

In retrospect, making the culture/science a flat bonus is probably not strategically exciting either; just send as many trade routes as you can. But at least it would be useful anytime.

Focus on expanding and on your getting amazing faith/production output instead of prioritizing science and culture like most players do. Leave inexpensive, yet not essential, techs and policies untouched as to profit as much as possible from your trade routes.

It allows you to focus on other things than science and culture and not be penalized too harshly, in that, I'd say it makes you more flexible than most other Civs, which will pretty much always prioritize one or the other.

 

[just_passed_away]

Russian bonuses seems OK to me. The only thing that i really don't like about is UD (and, maybe cossacks). I am very disappointed that lavra don't provide any defence bonuses. Historically, lavra and monasteries in medieval Russia played a role of fortresses. The largest ones were famous for their massive walls, which can protect people from nearby settelements when the territory were raided by nomads or enemies. Moscow, for instance, was surrounded by the network of monasteries, and they played significant roles at city defence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Troitse-Sergiyeva_Lavra
So, i suggest to give lavra some defence bonuses to the city or to unit, located here

 

[Josephias]

I am very disappointed that lavra don't provide any defence bonuses. Historically, lavra and monasteries in medieval Russia played a role of fortresses. The largest ones were famous for their massive walls, which can protect people from nearby settelements when the territory were raided by nomads or enemies. Moscow, for instance, was surrounded by the network of monasteries, and they played significant roles at city defence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Troitse-Sergiyeva_Lavra
So, i suggest to give lavra some defence bonuses to the city or to unit, located here

That's a bonus I think could be added to the Lavra. And matches well with the extra territory. Maybe make it act like an encampment in terms of defensive use (if city has walls, Lavra gains defensive features). If it is maybe too powerful to act as an encampment on the defense, then nerf the defensive strenght to, e.g. 50%.