[RD] Russia Invades Ukraine--Act 3: Ride of the Valkyries

[saamohod]

The problem is more than Russia media has proven again, again, again, again, again and again that they were far less trustworthy.

Yep.
But still lots of people exist, even in this thread (nevermind "patriotic" Russian citizens whose duty to the Motherland is to whitewash Russia's atrocities wherever they can reach), blinded by their hatred and resentment of the West\USA, that they again, again, again, again will take the Russian side in the discourse.

Anyway, one more video. This time from Al-Jazeera

 

[Zardnaar]

Yeah, we generally doubt what we are fed from various media, while you (ie Russians people) and the various people posting from troll farm (ie not you, not here) or being influenced by their propaganda seem to never ever doubt the Russian narrative.

Personally I've seen a lot of videos from both side showing various attacks, and something I always try to keep in mind is what is not shown in those videos. Hit doesn't mean kill. And more video from confirmed kills on one side may just mean the other dont have as many smartphone or internet access. Or is more professional. And is not proof of who's winning or losing the war.

The problem is more than Russia media has proven again, again, again, again, again and again that they were far less trustworthy.

I take Ukrainian stuff with a grain of salt and Russian stuff affiliated with state controlled media is very unreliable.

It can be useful for some combat footage or knowing what they're saying to their own people.

 

[r16]

the issue being r16 "reporting" or whatever that Joe Bidon for some reason walks back from openly stating things about killing Russian generals . It won't be acceptable in this thread or whatever , so ı will only hint that involves contracts in post Putin Russia and that would limit the wins , ı don't know , for perhaps some other Bidon . And was not assigning "any local man" catchet to anybody ; would have been only to add that the general media naturally IS leaning that way . As a guy who watched CNN in 1991 , because its live feed would be taken and used with simultaneous translation making it horrible and stuff to hear , ı don't think ı need further explanations that Russians lie . Considering there is no Gerasimov Doctrine or whatever and Russians learned Hybrid Warfare from the CNN .

and for the record , like for this thread , once again , am not a Russian and do not have a Russian mistress that poisons me against the world with pillow talk . Seems she has already been killed at least once .

 

[Gedemon]

and for the record , like for this thread , once again , am not a Russian

ho, my bad, I've edited my post.

 

[r16]

ı don't take being or not being a Russian as an insult , but it also happenz for local reasons (especially involving the ones about Russians getting defeated everyday) . Apparently there are still people out there claiming to be me for reasons and they were not happy with getting flat footed when Putin ordered the attack . It is payback time or something .

 

[r16]

some stupid things , as it seems . So , Macron says , uh , it will be decades before Ukraine will be in the EU . Ukraine says it will not be deceived . So , there is Lend Lease , you know , with the catch that Ukraine will pay it after the war . What was that London paid after the war , Lend Lease or ordinary borrowing ? Like did Russians pay for Lend Lease ? Oh yes , it will soon pass , just let Americans kill the unconventional ...

 

[keli]

The UN is catching up with civil casualties. This is just the verified bunch. Russia simply doesn't have modern weapons to spare the local population. Not that they ever cared though, it's part of their doctrine to decimate civilians.

https://twitter.com/UNGeneva/status/1523962297873584135
@UNHumanRights
Monitoring Mission in #Ukraine has so far confirmed 7,061 civilian casualties, including 3,381 killed and 3,680 injured. Real figures are probably much higher. "Every civilian death is a tragedy," says Matilda Bogner, head of the Mission.

 

[Kyriakos]

Wasn't the point of the orange revolution to supposedly eventually allow Ukraine to become a member of the Eu? (not that this was ever going to happen - speaking of realistic news )
It's obviously very much to be expected, that no side would release highly damaging views/info against their own side during a war. Remember chemical Ali etc. That said, I don't know of any russian territory controlled by Ukraine, yet do know of a very sizable ukrainian territory controlled by Russia - which is an obvious indicator of who (currently) is winning. This may, in theory, change. Until then, however, I don't see how claiming Ukraine is winning the war is logical.

On the positive side, though, at least it is commendable that this thread has roughly 50% pro nato and 50% pro-russian sources, so we are all fair and balanced here - taking into consideration both a value randomizer and a special constant for russian things.

As always, I don't mean at all Saamohod in my post. He definitely has all the right reasons to be invested in this, and no one would be very different if his own country was invaded.

 

[keli]

Wasn't the point of the orange revolution to supposedly allow Ukraine to become a member of the Eu? (not that this was ever going to happen - speaking of realistic news )
It's obviously very much to be expected, that no side would release highly damaging views/info against their own side during a war. Remember chemical Ali etc. That said, I don't know of any russian territory controlled by Ukraine, yet do know of a very sizable ukrainian territory controlled by Russia - which is an obvious indicator of who (currently) is winning. This may, in theory, change. Until then, however, I don't see how claiming Ukraine is winning the war is logical.

Again, how many troops, military equipment, political influence, economic prowess, trade relations would you sacrifice for 25% of Ukraine?
If the US invaded Mexico, lost 1 million troops and got hold of half of Northern Mexico, would you consider that a win? To be honest I think you are the only one who would...

 

[Kyriakos]

Again, how many troops, military equipment, political influence, economic prowess, trade relations would you give up for 25% of Ukraine?
If the US invaded Mexico, lost 1 million troops and got hold of half of Northern Mexico, would you consider that a win? To be honest I think you are the only one who would...

If you think losing half your country (or 25%) is a win, then I hope your country won't win in a war

 

[Snowygerry]

They still exist as a nation state - that was by no means a given when this war started, as long they do, they will eventually outperform RF economically, just like West-Germany outperformed East-Germany.

Borders can always be redrawn later - if needed.

 

[Kyriakos]

Until relatively recently, borders in Europe were supposed to never change again.
Usually when they do, it is a prelude to a much larger conflict.

 

[Snowygerry]

The essence of the EU is to make national borders irrelevant - worked wonders in Western Europe, given time, we can do the same in the East.

You can look at fomer Yugoslavia for comparison, a work in progress to be sure, but it shows the path forward.

 

[Zardnaar]

Russia is still technically winning as they're on the offensive still.

It's a pyric victory at best.

At worst they've mostly stalled and have withdrawn in places and Ukraines also advancing.

Against a country 1/3rd size in population with 1/10th of their military budget.

At this rate they also run out of equipment in 4-6 months. Unless they want to use really old equipment and find trained crews.


So to win Russia needs to change the equation or force a settlement.

Even if they pull that off eg Ukraine collapses sanctions remain. They can't defeat NATO or force USA to negotiate.

 

[AmazonQueen]

If you think losing half your country (or 25%) is a win, then I hope your country won't win in a war

Ukraine not holding Russian territory is a sign of who invaded who, not of who is winning.
Ukranian war aims don't include the conquest of Russia.

 

[Kyriakos]

The essence of the EU is to make national borders irrelevant - worked wonders in Western Europe, given time, we can do the same in the East.

You can look at fomer Youguslavia for comparison, a work in progress to be sure,

Easier to do when you are bordering the sea, than other blocks.

 

[Snowygerry]

Not too sure of that - there are any number of nation states in the EU that do not border the sea, and others that do,

but it does not seem to be decisive for anything as far I can see...

The Black Sea is a a somewhat special case anyhow, hardly a "gateway to the world",

both the Turks and the Russians can block any commercial shipping there without much effort.

 

[FriendlyFire]

If you think losing half your country (or 25%) is a win, then I hope your country won't win in a war

Its a win when you put 150,000 Ivans into the ground and wound another 200,000
aka When you mess with Finland, its how nations are forged into being

 

[Verbose]

Until relatively recently, borders in Europe were supposed to never change again.
Usually when they do, it is a prelude to a much larger conflict.

Unless one supports the unilateral Russians stuff – and few do – borders still haven't been redrawn.

Russia's war on Ukraine here is already part of a much larger conflict. Putin himself laid out what it is about in his pre-war demands on the US and NATO (mostly to the effect of it's as-good-as-self-abolition or-else – so now we are looking at the Russian "else").

 

[saamohod]

Its a win when you put 150,000 Ivans into the ground and wound another 200,000
aka When you mess with Finland

I'd argue that was still a win for Russia.

Russia kept the stolen land. It's almost certain that the initial goal was to capture whole Finland a-la Estonia, Latvia etc under a manufactured casus belli similar to what's going on in Ukraine now, but even that strategically convenient territory was a gain in the long run. Lost manpower will be replenished eventually. As long as the populace doesn't rebel and keeps procreating, there is no danger for the state.

Cost of human life has never been high in Russia anyway (as long as this is the life of the serf-class citizens that always constituted a vast majority of Russians). Their populace can lose millions of lives due to bad management and still blame the adversary as long as there is fear of the state that caused the said loss of lives.