[RD] Russia Invades Ukraine--Act 3: Ride of the Valkyries

[Kyriakos]

At least if Sweden does join nato - who knows in what way; got to appease another dictatorship - it won't be able to do as it did in ww2 and trade with nazi Germany Russia.

 

[keli]

Moderator Action: There is no reason to blame all Russians for Putin. They are not to blame. Russia's government runs the war and can be faulted. Please refrain from demonizing the masses for the faults of a few. Thanks.

Can we then also apply the same rigorous view when one is calling Ukrainians nazis (someone mentioned dehumanization?) or when one is denying massacres of Bucha for example? It's hard to draw the line of civil discussion in this war.

 

[Kyriakos]

Not sure if it is "allowed" to base a discussion on mod text. But if it is then it can be noted that while "nazis" is a reality, "orcs" aren't.
The analogue to calling russians orcs would be to call ukrainians... orcs.

 

[red_elk]

I guess the most extraordinary part in Khodarenok's speech is the discovery that opposition media and journalists do exist in Russia and occasionally criticize the government.
In Western media image of Russia is hardly distinguishable from North Korea, so merely acknowledging Ukraine as a serious opponent sounds to them like unbelievably dissident speech.

 

[saamohod]

Not sure if it is "allowed" to base a discussion on mod text. But if it is then it can be noted that while "nazis" is a reality, "orcs" aren't.

No, it's actually the other way around.
Nobody in their sound mind seriously believes that Russians are indeed orcs from the Tolkien's tales. On the other hand, some Russians in all seriousness claim that lots of Ukrainians are Nazis, especially those in the government and in the army, all Nazis.

 

[red_elk]

Can we then also apply the same rigorous view when one is calling Ukrainians nazis

Feel free to report anyone who labeled Ukrainian nation as Nazis. And good luck trying to find where I did that.

 

[Kyriakos]

No, it's actually the other way around.
Nobody in their sound mind seriously believes that Russians are indeed orcs from the Tolkien's tales. On the other hand, some Russians in all seriousness claim that lots of Ukrainians are Nazis, especially those in the government and in the army, all Nazis.

I agree, as long as it is terming "many"/"lots" of ukrainians that. But isn't the line blurred when it comes to specific groups, like the infamous Azov battalion?

Not that I think this war is to free Ukraine of nazis, mind. That is as real an argument as fighting against convenient terrorists, for other sides.

 

[Lexicus]

In Western media image of Russia is hardly distinguishable from North Korea

Not quite true. There's been a big change in media coverage since the war started but I read a lot of long-form western journalism on Putin and Russia, trying to understand what the hell was going on back when the war started, and there are noticeable differences. Russia is treated as a sort of "what went wrong?" situation whereas North Korea is simply assumed to be an inveterate enemy. In both cases western media are completely uninterested in how Western (or US more specifically) actions have contributed to the political outcomes in either country. I mean the US intervened in Russian election back in the 1990s to bring Putin's predecessor (and the one who cultivated Putin as a successor!) to power!

 

[Birdjaguar]

Can we then also apply the same rigorous view when one is calling Ukrainians nazis (someone mentioned dehumanization?) or when one is denying massacres of Bucha for example? It's hard to draw the line of civil discussion in this war.

Not sure if it is "allowed" to base a discussion on mod text. But if it is then it can be noted that while "nazis" is a reality, "orcs" aren't.
The analogue to calling russians orcs would be to call ukrainians... orcs.

Moderator Action: The best action is to not label whole populations as X or Y. That would apply to calling Russians demons and Ukrainians Nazis or other similar names. It is pretty needless trolling without any added benefit to the conversation.

 

[red_elk]

Not quite true. There's been a big change in media coverage since the war started but I read a lot of long-form western journalism on Putin and Russia, trying to understand what the hell was going on back when the war started, and there are noticeable differences. Russia is treated as a sort of "what went wrong?" situation whereas North Korea is simply assumed to be an inveterate enemy. In both cases western media are completely uninterested in how Western (or US more specifically) actions have contributed to the political outcomes in either country. I mean the US intervened in Russian election back in the 1990s to bring Putin's predecessor (and the one who cultivated Putin as a successor!) to power!

North Korea might be exaggeration on my part, but what I see here is jaw-dropping reaction from a lot of people to a man merely saying on Russian TV that Ukraine's military is a serious adversary. There's a lot of people in Russian military and society, with mindset "Never underestimate your enemy - let the enemy underestimate you instead". His appearance on state TV doesn't indicate much IMO.

 

[Broken_Erika]

Several Russian units refusing to fight in war - Ukrainian intelligence

Russian troops are increasingly refusing to take part in combat in Ukraine, the Ukrainian defence ministry's main intelligence directorate says.

In a post on the Telegram messenging service, it says several units of the 70th Guards Motorised Regiment have openly refused to take part in the war and demanded that they be returned to the areas where they are normally deployed.

Unit commanders are making every effort to hide the cases of disobedience, the directorate says, with the most un-cooperative servicemen "sent to the most dangerous area of the front-line in the hope that they would be killed quickly", the post claims.

The agency says the Russian Federal Security Service has decided to infiltrate the regiment's units with "agents and informants".

The BBC is not able to verify this information independently.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-61461805

 

[REDY]

I guess the most extraordinary part in Khodarenok's speech is the discovery that opposition media and journalists do exist in Russia and occasionally criticize the government.
In Western media image of Russia is hardly distinguishable from North Korea, so merely acknowledging Ukraine as a serious opponent sounds to them like unbelievably dissident speech.

Hes nothing like opposition. Opposition is in jail or abroad.
"It doesn’t take courage to say things on Russian TV, it takes permission." - G.Kasparov

 

[keli]

North Korea might be exaggeration on my part, but what I see here is jaw-dropping reaction from a lot of people to a man merely saying on Russian TV that Ukraine's military is a serious adversary. There's a lot of people in Russian military and society, with mindset "Never underestimate your enemy - let the enemy underestimate you instead". His appearance on state TV doesn't indicate much IMO.

What's jaw dropping to me is that you flat out deny that Bucha happened, no matter how much evidence is available. It's even more astonishing that you believe this regardless of the wide range of access you have to information.
Combining this with the fact that the Kremlin keeps it's narrative of this war very very tightly, is it such a big leap to assume that Khodaryonok was there only because the Kremlin wanted him to be there and not because he was independently asked/invited?

 

[red_elk]

Hes nothing like opposition. Opposition is in jail or abroad.

5 minutes ago he was a dissident, now he is nothing like opposition. Dialectics!

What's jaw dropping to me is that you flat out deny that Bucha happened, no matter how much evidence is available.

And you can quote me where I denied that?
If your jaw drops for no reason, may be something is wrong with it?

 

[r16]

this going to be in stuff like because ...

Spoiler :

"muslims" have always been closer to London . Which stems from basic history . America desiring to break down the old to sell jeans and Coca Cola while Britain clinging to all sorts of assets with serious care due to the needs created after the sun started to set on the British Empire . Say after the Saudis went over to America in 1945 and opening up their massive oil reserves , risking the lran/lraq dominion of the UK , there has been extra diligence . Sometimes fighting , sometimes acting in concert , the two Anglosaxon powers have created a massive ecosystem or whatever that "prospers" no matter what .

then there was the Arab Spring . Which involved the destruction of Arab Regimes which were not required . Or desirable . Because the Petrodolar states abhorred the risks of an educated class . Which they needed to maximise the utilisation of oil proceeds ... Which has been always painful because autocracies do not like educated classes that quickly realize it is them which enables the system and as such deserve a bigger slice , 1848 something and later on . The solution was a war with lran , or rather an appearance of such . Which the educated classes would support for fun or being brainwashed and the mobs could always crush the effeminite/Western leaning/not Faithful enough educated classes in some moment of extreme provocation .

which involves , naturally , New Turkey . A lie from the beginning to the end . And the end always delayed by American gifts and stuff . Created by the financial ruin of a NATO ally , bolstred by a fake promise of joining the EU , while the PM has never changed one bit since the 1990s . He has never been busy with hiding that Democracy was just a tool for him . Yet still playing this particular game with skill , funded by foreign funds including those from George Sho-ross (you know , that Hungarian guy who once bankrupted London) and (now it is more apparent) by money laundering . Anything from illicit gains by dictators to outright drug trade . Joining hands with the seperatist movement and fighting whenever it suited . This last is of course contentious . People would say there was worse fighting during the Republic times and so on . The difference lays in the thing ... that during the Republic times your outpost might have been attacked because you were not aware you were disrupting some drug deal where the smugglers would have been escorted by the seperatists before the escort duty was taken over by the Military outpost on the next hill . During A-K-P times this still happened but there were specific attacks conducted to influence the promotion lists , to accelarate the rise of the Golden Generation , the Congregation members who would establish Caliphate or destroy the Republic or each have an harem of 10 or 20 or whatever . Dear Turkish people who will be reading this after it is filtered in 10 different ways during translation ... This country was as powerful (when compared to the global scene) during Ecevit or Demirel , but they would smile at Americans and refuse the demands calmly , after personal experience of the Menderes era when the last guy became a victim of post-Suez Anglosaxon infighting , declared a scapegoat , humiliated in various ways (down to random prostate examinations) and hanged . The difference is New Turkey is ... uhm , say whatever you think you will survive after saying it ... And the institutions . However treacherous the people might have been , they would still be scared . Of the State that would come and make them pay . Someday . Somehow .

new Turkey destroyed all that . Under orders and advice from the West . So that it could fight an endless war with lran . So that the Gulf Princes could enjoy East European escorts without problems . The trouble was that "Muslims" discovered they loved power , wealth and everything that came with it . They too wanted East European escorts . Everytime some CIA agent or think-tank researcher or university professor tells them that power should be shared in some illusion and weird people would accept the facts on the ground only if they were offered a percentage of the loot , some p rn star appears on r16's way to home ...

that's where the war in Ukraine starts ... New Turkey couldn't fight any "fair" fight . They had weakened the Military in the first place . New Turkey thought it was very smart , even if its conspiracies were visible to all . New Turkey thought it was eternal but it was more of clay than steel . "Eurasians" , them serving and retired Military types (with many of them specifically raised to be moles against perceived and imagined Soviet operations in this country) and very old school Communists (like in the 21st Century !) under stress and in many cases actively hunted as stay behinds of Kemalism and whatnot then noticed odd things in the Aegean . More and more islands were sprouting people on them . Who also happened to be Greeks . Who were being funded by the EU and the inhabitated status of those places were increasing the EU's territorial area ... Making peace with seperatists was not popular but trying to sell that as treason was kind of hard . As Aegean islands and islets fell one by one , New Turkey simply ignored the charges . While Congregation after becoming too big for its boots and taking courage ftom its lobbying power in the US , was trying to carve a Lebensraum of its very own abroad . Making them to be far more accomodating to lran and stuff . Add straight and outright jealousy ; and you will have trouble between the ranks ... The drone business comes after that . Beating down the Kemalists and almost racists , New Turkey can not trust on its enemies it just sent to jail to fight an open war with Congregation . Or the Republic ... They need tech solutions . Which comes in some pack anyhow ...


as these things happen the timetable suffers heavily . Incredible things happen . Assured victory in Syria slips away . Set aside as a showcase for New Turkey's splendid military prowess that became possible only when the Jews were eliminated from any office in the country , Syria instead creates an opening for lran to betray the deal they had with Bush ll . Instead of "limited" gains in lraq , lran moves into the possibility of a land bridge up to Hizbullah in Lebanon ! There will be one specific operation in Damascus itself . Not particularly impressive in American standarts but it will kill a certain amount of CIA people , will create trouble up to the level of Kasım Süleymani in being an "high tech" operation in contrast the human wave traditions of the Revolutionary Guard . Being "not Iranian style" it will be explained as mercenaries and all . And finally a deal with Russia that it should lend an hand and do their Christian duty ... Can't tell whether this operation came before or after Obama's pink line of chemical weapons in Syria ... which still had its moments of the PM shaking his finger at Obama in the White House . Because of the extreme amount of investment and the fantasies in the Gulf including taking revenge of the thousand years of suffering under the horsebandits (the Abbasid Caliphate and the aftermath) and whatever and the Gezi Events , the West finally decided it was a Russian operation . Moscow was not playing nice , Moscow would be taught a lesson .

london's hopes from lstanbul was even greater . Because you may not have noticed it , but there is low scale effort that still aims to make it the capital of New Turkey and it was far more vocal before 2013 ... lf one was to make a search , one would probably see the Brexit stuff gains some speed in those years . When Russia will be taken down and Halliburton did so much after being on the winning side and the French boycotted and the Freedom Fries and fine French wine poured down the gutters (by a guy that imported Italian wines in some pure coincidence) it looked reasonable that the EU should have been sidelined ... Uh , you people think it was about those EU fools interfering in British life by creating laws and standarts about cucumber sizes ? Victoria Nuland even ...

the tablet ate half of it because as a fool ı had logged out while keeping the tab ı was writing something twice as long . Anyhow supposedly a State Department team will be in town today . Am pretty sure what ı think has already been read but it is essentially no . Will complete this and uh , trust me it is relevant . Really relevant to how things came to this stage . Bonus picture , because the rumours were ı would be able to post pictures if ı behaved . Wonder why this didn't make its way here long ago . Azov guy in Azovstahl ...

 

[Yeekim]

On the topic of "Russians" or "Russia" vs Putin: whatever that country is today, whatever the regime that rules it - it is what Russians, collectively, have made of it.
Unless we somehow seek to put responsibility on Mongols, that is.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Just to let you guys know in the eyes of many Koreans... Russian government and armies became laughing figure ever since this war started.
Before Ukrainian war Koreans thought : WOW badass Mother Russian army!
Now: LOLZ what a joke. Whimmpy army!

 

[Lexicus]

On the topic of "Russians" or "Russia" vs Putin: whatever that country is today, whatever the regime that rules it - it is what Russians, collectively, have made of it.
Unless we somehow seek to put responsibility on Mongols, that is.

Yes and no. I think a lot of the problem is the botched dissolution of the Soviet Union. And no, I don't mean I pine for Soviet times, only that I think the social consequences of "shock therapy" doomed Russia to a politics pretty similar to what we're seeing now.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes and no. I think a lot of the problem is the botched dissolution of the Soviet Union. And no, I don't mean I pine for Soviet times, only that I think the social consequences of "shock therapy" doomed Russia to a politics pretty similar to what we're seeing now.

Even with shock therapy if they made different choices 2000-2008 they would be better off.

 

[FriendlyFire]

I guess the most extraordinary part in Khodarenok's speech is the discovery that opposition media and journalists do exist in Russia and occasionally criticize the government.
In Western media image of Russia is hardly distinguishable from North Korea, so merely acknowledging Ukraine as a serious opponent sounds to them like unbelievably dissident speech.

As one journalist explained it
Previously you could get opposition views publicly aired with the main host shouting you down and being ridicuded as a performance art, but you could get opposition voiced
Since the start of this Special operation not anymore. Russian government has tightened its control around the Media

Its extraordinary that you continue to ask us why we dont trust the Russian Media.
Which we have answered many times that Russian lies, repeatly and blantlently.