[RD] Russia Invades Ukraine: Eight

[red_elk]

so more than one million deaths because Russia was afraid.

Or because someone was afraid of Russia.

 

[Farm Boy]

France refused Ukraine application in 2008 and look what happened...

Finland and Sweden joined because of Russia actual action. All eastern European members joined because they feared Russia potential action (rightfully looking at Georgia, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldavia)

Expecting truths spoken from hands that are working to kill you is the height of folly. Arrogant, even.

Just, watch the hands.

 

[Ordnael]

This suffering is caused by NATO expansion as a tool of US imperialism, and US military industrial complex continuing to fuel war which could end 2.5 years ago on much better terms for Ukraine.

US imperialism and military industrial complex (all of these words together sound like they're coming from someone with a tinfoil hat) really did a number on NEUTRAL parties (neutral by being very fearful of what Russia could do to them and is now doing to Ukraine) like Sweden and Finland!
Ridle me that!

 

[Verbose]

Or because someone was afraid of Russia.

That's actually funny, Yes, that is what we are talking about.

No one wants the return of the Russian empire. Ukraine is fighting this war to not have to end up back in some form of a respawned Russian empire. All the eastern European former Soviet and Soviet satellite states that joined NATO did so as the best guarantee agains the return of the Russian empire.

Finland and Sweden eventually joined NATO, because it is becoming increasingly clear that non-NATO membership now equates ending up holding the bucket, and downright inviting Russian military aggression. Russia is a direct danger to any state outside NATO – by Russian choice and design.

Which is why Ukraine is pushing so hard for Ukranian NATO membership – not that it is getting it so far...

NATO is the only readily available tool that as actual potential to deter Russia at this point. (There are other, more, things that can do it, but they take more time and effort – time being in short supply in particular.)

THIS is why European security analysts are trying to calculate when – should Russia be able to actually wrap up the Ukraine war again to its satisfaction – Russia might be able to attack further neighbors, be that three, five, seven, ten years or whatever.

All that matters now is credible deterrence of Russia – how to keep Russia out or our countries, how to keep Russia from trying to rebuild some kind of wildly quixotic, nightmarish empire.

This Russian war is perverse, as the Russian dreams of empire are perverse.

 

[Gedemon]

Or because someone was afraid of Russia.

I won't deny that if the US and UE weren't afraid of Russia, the war would have been stopped day 1.

 

[red_elk]

Pretty much yes, though there still might be some military activity even after full nuclear exchange.

 

[Farm Boy]

Such beautiful cities of glass.

Probably more beautiful than they were with the inhabitants intact, from a global view.

But there's that Mark of Cain argument. I kinda like that one, once I placed it.

 

[red_elk]

Such beautiful cities of glass.

Not what we want, but Russia will respond with nukes if it's cornered.
Not against cities of course, unless the escalation eventually comes to it.
Luckily, your leaders understand that.

 

[Farm Boy]

Cornered. In the largest country in earth, while in somebody else's.

That's rapist level entitlement from your leaders.

Yeah, it's the Mark.

 

[Gorbles]

Not what we want, but Russia will respond with nukes if it's cornered.

Russia isn't the victim here.

 

[ConquestsMaster]

Cornered. In the largest country in earth, while in somebody else's.

That's rapist level entitlement from your leaders.

Yeah, it's the Mark.

It's not just the leaders. It's also the regular citizens who gobble up state propaganda without an ounce of critical thinking, as shown in this thread. Every time I think the delusions and the victim complex cannot get worse, they do.

In one post, Russia is presented as strong and invincible, proudly inflicting untold sufferings upon its recalcitrant Slavic brothers. We are told that any Western help is meaningless, that the West cannot produce weapons, that its economy is crumbling, and that Ukraine is doomed.

Simultaneously and paradoxically, Russia had no choice but to launch this war if it hoped to survive as a state and as a people. If the West slightly increases its military aid or partially lifts some restrictions on weapon systems, Russia will be incredibly threatened, and thus have no choice but to defend itself by plunging the world into nuclear holocaust, ending mankind as we know it.

Tbh, anti-Russian propaganda is similarly contradictory.

 

[red_elk]

Cornered.

Not yet, but in the event of direct aggression from NATO, it could be.

In the largest country in earth

Yes, also without corners. Paradox, isn't it?

 

[Farm Boy]

No. Rape is not a paradox.

 

[red_elk]

Rape is not a paradox indeed. Tell that to your compatriots.

 

[Farm Boy]

I listened to you when you have spoken of them.

The unfortunate part is that I am still listening to you now.

 

[red_elk]

Truth can be hurtful to hear, I understand. I didn't say anything new though, this has been my position for last years.

 

[Farm Boy]

<snicker>

 

[Birdjaguar]

Moderator Action: And now back to news please.

 

[Akka]

That may have been a mistake yes, we actually opposed Ukrainian membership in 2008 on the grounds that easternmost parts of Ukraine would undefendable by the Western allies in case of actual war, and the US would turn out to be unreliable ally.

And also it was to "not provoke Russia". Guess Russia didn't really need an actual provocation, it only needed a completely made-up pretext.
(also notice that Russia said it didn't care about Finland joining NATO, nor did it felt actually threatened considering it emptied its bases along the Finnish border, showing starkly that the entire "it's because NATO threat" is the usual complete BS)

 

[Gedemon]

Russia Moves to Cut Off Ukraine’s Nuclear Power Plants

Moscow has increasingly hit critical substations linked to nuclear power plants in an effort to disconnect them. At the same time, Ukraine replaced the commander of its ground forces.

www.nytimes.com

Russia hit critical electricity transmission facilities linked to nuclear power plants during its latest assault on Ukraine’s power grid on Thursday, the International Atomic Energy Agency reported. It was the third such attack in roughly as many months, heightening concerns among experts about the potential for a nuclear disaster.

The agency said that the Russian strikes had hit electrical substations crucial for Ukraine’s three operational nuclear plants to transmit and receive power. While no direct damage to reactors was reported, all of them reduced output as a precautionary measure and one was disconnected from the grid.

“Ukraine’s energy infrastructure is extremely fragile and vulnerable, putting nuclear safety at great risk,” Rafael Mariano Grossi, the head of the agency, the I.A.E.A., said in a statement released late Thursday.