[RD] Russia Invades Ukraine: Eight

[really]

They lost another F-16 several days ago. Ukraine only acknowledged loss, Russia provided a bit more details.

I'm not sure what more you expect from Ukraine if they acknowledged the loss?

They are hardly going to conduct a post mortem in public dissecting the factors leading to the loss.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Deleted two posts, please report posts you have issues with. More news less discussing each other.

 

[Kyriakos]

Trump blames Zelensky for starting war day after massive Russian attack

The US president apportioned blame to Ukraine's leader hours after the deadliest strike on civilians this year.

www.bbc.com

US no longer backs Ukraine. Imo this should signal that the longer the war goes on, the worse a peace deal will be for Ukraine (and it will be very bad regardless).

It's not easy to help with that, let alone when you are being pushed out so openly. Still, for now and for this specific war, there is no other option.

 

[Gedemon]

That's exactly why Russia doesn't want to stop the war and should be the side pressured to end it.

 

[Kyriakos]

That's exactly why Russia doesn't want to stop the war and should be the side pressured to end it.

But typically you put pressure on the weaker side. It only is different when there are other interests (and the energy market thing already happened).
Pretexts and existent historical and political issues aside, personally I won't be surprised if in the end the war largely happened so that the Eu lost access to cheap energy and thus lost the last semblance of independence.

 

[Gedemon]

if it wasn't about survival, it would make sense.

but people fighting for survival won't back down has easily as people fighting for conquest. they may even start doing nasty things if you abandon them to die.

you have to look at who has the less to lose if you really want to end things quickly.

 

[Kyriakos]

if it wasn't about survival, it would make sense.

but people fighting for survival won't back down has easily as people fighting for conquest. they may even start doing nasty things if you abandon them to die.

you have to look at who has the less to lose if you really want to end things quickly.

It never worked that way. You are thinking of ethics, when this is purely interest-driven.
Ukraine will be maimed, and that in no way means it is guaranteed to keep existing after the "operation" ends.
There is a rather large list of countries that died in recent years (Syria being the latest), they were abandoned to their fate too.

 

[Gedemon]

It never worked that way. You are thinking of ethics, when this is purely interest-driven.

it is interest driven, what would you do for you or your family survival ?

I'll forget ethics if I was in that case, and you won't be able to pressure me into abandoning.

now if you're talking of the US interests then it's another context, outside the scope of my answer which is about which side will resist pressure and why.

and then they'll pressure the strongest side if it was in their interests

 

[Kyriakos]

it is interest driven, what would you do for you or your family survival ?

I'll forget ethics if I was in that case, and you won't be able to pressure me into abandoning.

now if you're talking of the US interests then it's another context, outside the scope of my answer which is about which side will resist pressure and why.

and then they'll pressure the strongest side if it was in their interests

Well yes, we were discussing which side US would pressure. Back when it still had something to gain (removing the energy flow from Russia to Eu), it was fervently on Ukraine's side. Now it doesn't have anything to gain by continuing support, so it very publicly states that it does not support Ukraine.
You know the famous quote about 1 death and 1 million deaths. Certainly now we still are talking about this - but when the war ends, you sadly will find that it gets relegated to a past issue like what happened with Gaza, let alone what happened in Artsach (Armenia) or Syria where our media barely cared (due to no political interest).
Of course this isn't the same for Ukraine itself. I see no reason to expect the time after the war to not be really miserable and dangerous - not with civilian bombings, but societal collapse.

 

[Verbose]

Ticking off the latest news in my local newspaper – the EU is introducing "burner phones" for reps visiting the US, same as it does for visits to China or Russia – as Ukranian sources reports the Ukranian government will imminently completely rescind whatever preliminary agreements about minerals have been made with the US – while the US govt has in the works completely stopping all US funding of the UN AND NATO...

 

[Kyriakos]

Ticking off the latest news in my local newspaper – the EU is introducing "burner phones" for reps visiting the US, same as it does for visits to China or Russia – as Ukranian sources reports the Ukranian government will imminently completely rescind whatever preliminary agreements about minerals have been made with the US – while the US govt has in the works completely stopping all US funding of the UN AND NATO...

How likely is it that what your "local newspaper" says about that, is actually going to happen? Particularly the part in red.

 

[Samson]

Hacking group Anonymous unleashes huge cyberattack on Russia

Hacking group Anonymous says it has pulled off a massive cyberattack on Russia, releasing 10 terabytes of leaked data online.

The leaked data in question was released on 15 April 2025, and it includes sensitive information about the country's political landscape, with information on local businesses also a part of the leaks.

Data on pro-Russian officials and Kremlin assets overseas were also a part of the preciously confidential information.On top of all of this, alleged information on US President Donald Trump was also made public.

The official X account for Anonymous announced the cyber attack on the social media platform, writing: "In defense of Ukraine Anonymous has released 10TB of leaked data on all businesses operating in Russia, all Kremlin assets in the West, pro-Russian officials, Donald Trump, and more."

The unprecedented move has spilled the beans on a number of private topics, such as details on Russian businesses, their financial activities and their affiliations.

As well as this, some Kremlin assets in Western countries in particular have been revealed to have been under a network of influence, while officials have been named and attention has been brought to activities that may have been kept behind closed doors.

This is apparently the data if you want it https://www.mediafire.com/file/9prdor8m7a1z9f6/Leaked+Data+of+corrupt+officials.rar/file

 

[Kyriakos]

Hacking group Anonymous unleashes huge cyberattack on Russia

Hacking group Anonymous says it has pulled off a massive cyberattack on Russia, releasing 10 terabytes of leaked data online.

The leaked data in question was released on 15 April 2025, and it includes sensitive information about the country's political landscape, with information on local businesses also a part of the leaks.

Data on pro-Russian officials and Kremlin assets overseas were also a part of the preciously confidential information.On top of all of this, alleged information on US President Donald Trump was also made public.

The official X account for Anonymous announced the cyber attack on the social media platform, writing: "In defense of Ukraine Anonymous has released 10TB of leaked data on all businesses operating in Russia, all Kremlin assets in the West, pro-Russian officials, Donald Trump, and more."

The unprecedented move has spilled the beans on a number of private topics, such as details on Russian businesses, their financial activities and their affiliations.

As well as this, some Kremlin assets in Western countries in particular have been revealed to have been under a network of influence, while officials have been named and attention has been brought to activities that may have been kept behind closed doors.

This is apparently the data if you want it https://www.mediafire.com/file/9prdor8m7a1z9f6/Leaked+Data+of+corrupt+officials.rar/file

Interesting, although Anonymous very infamously backed down in a fight against a relatively small Mexican cartel - so taking on Russia isn't likely.

 

[Sommerswerd]

But typically you put pressure on the weaker side.

This seems to be a non-sequitur

A contemporaneous example of what I mean... you wouldn't agree with the position that the US should be putting pressure on the Palestinians to end the invasion of Gaza, rather, you would say that the US should be putting the pressure on Israel, right?

So I don't think it makes sense for you to say "you typically put pressure on the weaker side" in the context of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, as if putting pressure on the weaker side is some sort of self-evident, best-practices, approach to ending wars. Certainly Russia has more leverage now, than a year ago, given Trump's affinity for Putin and desire to side with Putin against Ukraine, but that doesn't necessarily mean the best approach is to drag Ukraine into giving up.

I'd say which side it is best to pressure, depends a lot on the context, and the particular relationship/connection to the belligerents as well as the conflict. The US is probably best suited to pressure Russia, because while Ukraine probably can't survive without US military aid, Russia definitely can't overrun Ukraine if the US continues giving military aid. Trump is aware of this and stated something to that effect at the beginning of his current term... that he wouldn't abandon Ukraine, because he recognized that continuing military aid to Ukraine was the only way he could maintain any leverage with Russia.

I'd say China and to a lesser extent, India, are also in much better position to pressure Russia rather than Ukraine. I don't think either of those countries has any significant amount of leverage over Ukraine that would induce Ukraine to give up, while I think both have strong enough ties to Russia, economic, military and otherwise, that they could help persuade Putin to agree to some kind of truce or armistice. The EU, on the other hand, probably has more influence to pressure Ukraine into quitting, than to get Russia to do anything, especially now that Trump is in office, putting US aid to Ukraine in question.

 

[Kyriakos]

This seems to be a non-sequitur

A contemporaneous example of what I mean... you wouldn't agree with the position that the US should be putting pressure on the Palestinians to end the invasion of Gaza, rather, you would say that the US should be putting the pressure on Israel, right?

If I was asked, ethically, I would not agree with US pressuring Palestinians (or Ukrainians etc). But if I was asked what the standard strategy is, of course I would agree that US would put pressure on Palestinians instead of a side it is interwoven with and is itself far stronger than Palestinians.
You simply confused what the normal/common/ubiquitous practice is, with what an ethical practice would be.
If you are wondering, I am not happy with what the standard practice is - but such things aren't formed by what makes me happy. Ethics come into play primarily with individuals, and next to not at all with states (it's also something touched upon in the Melian dialogue, where ethical arguments are dismissed as fit only to serve as a side-dish if not side-show when mostly equal powers discuss).

 

[innonimatu]

You mispronounced Russia. I'll help R-U-S-S-I-A. We all know the serial liar is in Russia, I mean no comment on well documented North Korean soldiers, calling massacre of Ukrainian civilians mistakes! Bucha didn't happen for the bloody monster in the Kremlin!

Again with mispronunciation! But I'll help, again! You mispronounced civilians. It's C-I-V-I-L-I-A-N-S. We all know to real target to Russia's mistakes is civilians and not military installation, remember they've told so well in their Russian media that Ukraine shouldn't exist as a sovereign country, their people have no right to their own culture and language...heck not even their kids are safe.

But yeah Reuters is lying with all their teeth...you're right nothing so see here about the deliberate massacre of the Ukrainian nation, people, culture and kidnapping of children. It's all a big lie!

Yes, it very likely is. War propaganda, is that a new concept for you? It has been years and Ukraine offered no evidence and allowed no independent thioer party to investigate its Bucha claims. There was only one country demanding an investigation in the UNSC, it wasn't Ukraine or any of its sponsors. Those blocked it.
I also recall the phony "massacre" that NATO's pet terrorists in Kosovo set up to justify to its public opinions" the bombing do Serbia do you? I don't think so.

Oh wait, you still believe in the rape press by Hamas in Israel, right? And still fully support Israel's deliberate targeting of civilians day in and day in.

The recent two missiles in the Sumy area hit an army cerimony to which some civilians had for some reason the ukranians only know been invited. Russian reports placed a number of western military officers there also.
I have noticed a consistent pattern: everty time the russian mod claims it hit (no ukranian or NATO confirmantion) foreign miliotary "advisors" deployed in Ukraine, western press publishes pieces crying bloody murder of "civilains". Pictures of the hit places show dead and wounded people in uniform though. Was this one any different? I remain skeptical of any claims until I see evidence. There seems to be agreement that there were dead civilians in this one - an unusual occurence in this war compared to the war you support against Gaza - but no side contests that the target was a military unit.

If you were able to maintain any critical thinking, taking into consideration that all sides in a war deploy propaganda, you could learn a lot about how a war is going from the evolution of that propaganda. If you don't, you'll be surprised in the end. Did I ever mention that the germans kept announcing german victores ever closer to Berlin in 1943-45? That became the way the german public knew how close they were to losing - official propaganda inevitably was quite revealing.

The "kidnapping of children" thing for actually evacuating childrem from a war zone into safe areas, btw, is embarrassing by now. Repeating it now is ridiculous. Its political utility ceased years ago. It was a trumped-up charge crafted on the premise that Russia's government could be collapsed and Putin hauled to the Hague like Milosevic - whom, btw,they never manged to convict because those changes back then were also made up.

 

[Snowygerry]

More senseless murders today by the Russian army, hitting targets with no military value whatsoever with flying bombs :

"The Russians killed three people, including one child."

Dnipropetrovsk regional governor Sergiy Lysak said a young girl and an elderly woman were among the dead.

Twenty-eight people were wounded in the unmanned aerial vehicle attack, including four children, the State Emergency Service said.

Russia drone strike kills at least three in Ukraine’s Dnipro

A Russian drone strike on the Ukrainian city of Dnipro late Wednesday killed three people, including a young girl, and injured 28 others, officials said. The attack sparked fires across the city as Russia's…

www.france24.com

No wonder they are despised in Europe and not at all surprising the current US government tacitly supports such actions.

Aerial attacks have escalated despite calls by US President Donald Trump for a ceasefire to halt more than three years of fighting.

Why Russia’s actions pose a threat well beyond its neighbours

Europeans might be focused on deterring Russia’s military might—but they also need to consider the danger of its political gamble

ecfr.eu

However, western Europe’s focus on conventional military risk misses a far more insidious danger. The threat to countries like Spain or Portugal might not be direct, but even a relatively small scale military imbroglio with Russia in eastern Europe could unravel the institutional fabric of the EU. And it is this political stability which has kept the continent prosperous, secure and integrated for decades.

The threat Russia poses to the EU is not primarily about tanks crossing borders or missiles striking cities as far as the Iberian or Apennine peninsula. It is rooted in the potential that even limited military confrontation scenarios in northern or central Europe would have a direct effect on every corner of Europe—as far north as Iceland or far south as Portugal. Every EU member state, from the Baltic coast to the Mediterranean shores, has a stake in preventing this outcome.

 

[Ordnael]

I'll stop at your Bucha denial with some easy rebate, taken from the wikipedia source:

Bucha massacre - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"On 6 May 2022, Amnesty International published the results of their investigation of the massacre. It concluded that Russian forces were guilty of unlawful attacks and willful killings of civilians in Bucha, Andriivka, Zdvyzhivka, and Vorzel. In Bucha alone, 22 different cases of killings by Russian forces were confirmed"

"On 22 December 2022, The New York Times published the results of their investigation of the massacre. The eight-month visual investigation by the paper concluded that the perpetrators of the massacre along Yablunska Street were Russian paratroopers from the 234th Air Assault Regiment (part of 76th Guards Air Assault Division) led by Lt. Col. Artyom Gorodilov."

Also plenty of other journalist outlets have had boots on the ground of Bucha!

I won't even bother to read the rest of what you wrote. "Russia is great, long live the blood Tsar, we don't speak about Bucha"

 

[Akka]

There was also the pretty blatant satellite images that were taken before the Russians left the village, and which clearly displayed bodies in the streets at the exact same place they were found after its liberation (hey, maybe that spacetime was in the conspiracy too).
But well, reality is irrelevant to people who have a vested interest in "alternative truth". The only question is if they are deliberately manipulative, or just flatly clinically insane. And what luck, we have at least one of each in this thread. Yay, I guess.

 

[Gedemon]

Yes, it very likely is. War propaganda, is that a new concept for you? It has been years and Ukraine offered no evidence and allowed no independent thioer party to investigate its Bucha claims. There was only one country demanding an investigation in the UNSC, it wasn't Ukraine or any of its sponsors. Those blocked it.
I also recall the phony "massacre" that NATO's pet terrorists in Kosovo set up to justify to its public opinions" the bombing do Serbia do you? I don't think so.

Oh wait, you still believe in the rape press by Hamas in Israel, right? And still fully support Israel's deliberate targeting of civilians day in and day in.

The recent two missiles in the Sumy area hit an army cerimony to which some civilians had for some reason the ukranians only know been invited. Russian reports placed a number of western military officers there also.
I have noticed a consistent pattern: everty time the russian mod claims it hit (no ukranian or NATO confirmantion) foreign miliotary "advisors" deployed in Ukraine, western press publishes pieces crying bloody murder of "civilains". Pictures of the hit places show dead and wounded people in uniform though. Was this one any different? I remain skeptical of any claims until I see evidence. There seems to be agreement that there were dead civilians in this one - an unusual occurence in this war compared to the war you support against Gaza - but no side contests that the target was a military unit.

If you were able to maintain any critical thinking, taking into consideration that all sides in a war deploy propaganda, you could learn a lot about how a war is going from the evolution of that propaganda. If you don't, you'll be surprised in the end. Did I ever mention that the germans kept announcing german victores ever closer to Berlin in 1943-45? That became the way the german public knew how close they were to losing - official propaganda inevitably was quite revealing.

The "kidnapping of children" thing for actually evacuating childrem from a war zone into safe areas, btw, is embarrassing by now. Repeating it now is ridiculous. Its political utility ceased years ago. It was a trumped-up charge crafted on the premise that Russia's government could be collapsed and Putin hauled to the Hague like Milosevic - whom, btw,they never manged to convict because those changes back then were also made up.

you support the use of cluster munitions on Russian cities with military gathering ?

there will be a few targets in May.