Russia or Canada poll

Which is the better overall tundra civ post April update?


  • Total voters
    82

FireKasier

Chieftain
Joined
Apr 24, 2021
Messages
9
Post update i think Canada is in a really strong position now with the insane yields it can get from tundras. But overall, do you think Russia is better for the tundra?
 

Duke William of Normandy

King of England & Unofficial Welcoming Committee
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Russia is still a Civ where you get some Bonuses from settling in Tundra, but you're pretty much fine if you don't spawn in or get Tundra Tiles. Canada is now a Civ where you must settle in Tundra, like how Mali is for Desert Tiles.
 

Depravo

Siring Bastards
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Sep 28, 2005
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England
Russia's immunity to blizzards is a huge strength. The one time I played Canada I quit in frustration because half the turn time was taken moving builders around (and when an improvement is destroyed rather than pillaged, how annoying it is how when 50 turns later, you notice you forgot to rebuild the improvement that was gathering an important resource or luxury).
 

Mr. Salt

Warlord
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Aug 23, 2020
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CT
Russia is probably still stronger, but Canada is better at taking advantage of Tundra specifically. It's like Australia vs Mali.
 

Leucarum

Emperor
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Dec 21, 2018
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There is a conflict between the two since Russia and Canada both want tundra to boost their religion game. Canada can make the tundra much better, but if Russia is in the game Canada probably won't get the tundra pantheon making them less effective. Overall, Canada is now really the civ that wants to be in the heart of the tundra and can really grow cities there though, and they get a big boost if Russia isn't there to hamper their religion game. I gave Canada the nod in the vote since for the majority of games Russia won't be in play.
 

Vargas1

Prince
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Sep 30, 2020
Messages
448
The half-price lavra plus dance of the aurora/work ethic plus monumentality still make Russia the best tundra civ for me. By turn 80 you can have double-digit cities, each with 20+ production. From there you can go down whatever path you want.
 

AriaLyric

Nonbinary | Peaceful Builder
Joined
Jun 24, 2020
Messages
485
I voted for Canada over Russia. I feel like if you define how "good" a civ is as how easy it is to win as them, Russia would win, but I think a better definition of "good civ" would be a civ that's not underpowered and is fun, satisfying, and engaging to play as, and I think Canada beats out Russia in all three of those. And since we're talking specifically about good tundra civs - if I was given a start in the tundra, and told I had to win that game by turn 275 or else and was given the choice of who to play as, I'd choose Russia. But if I was given the same start and was told I had to play it, but there's no negative consequences for losing or even just playing slowly/suboptimally, I'd choose Canada because they're more fun to play as.
 

Leah and Rachael

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 9, 2020
Messages
48
Overall, Canada is now really the civ that wants to be in the heart of the tundra and can really grow cities there though, and they get a big boost if Russia isn't there to hamper their religion game. I gave Canada the nod in the vote since for the majority of games Russia won't be in play.
You basically said Canada if Russia isn't there? So... if Russia is an option, then Russia? Kikiki.
I'm just messing with you.

You're right. Canada is now insane! A civ that can truly thrive in Tundra. And the no Surprise Wars thing really helps you at higher difficulties in the early game.

All in all, I feel like Russia is still stronger and more versatile. Canada has a more unique flavor
 
Joined
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Dallas, TX
1/2 cost Lavra in the tundra with DotA and Mother Russia > regular holy site in the tundra with DotA. Mass faith gen is god tier for all things pertaining to almost all win cons. Shout out to the Canada buffs, as they're definitely stronger, but Russia hasn't been hit that hard with the nerf bat.
 

Archon_Wing

Vote for me or die
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Apr 3, 2005
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Canada's not even an option. Russia can get an early pantheon with tundra and thus can take Dance of the Aurora + Work Ethic to make up for whatever else the tundra lacks. They can also settle directly on tundra for faith. On the other hand, Canada is stuck working food negative tiles so they're no use early game, except for camps which as I've noted from my last few rolls isn't guaranteed at all.

If there is little or no Tundra, Russia is still better because they grab more tiles and still have their Lavra.
 
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
990
Canada's not even an option. Russia can get an early pantheon with tundra and thus can take Dance of the Aurora + Work Ethic to make up for whatever else the tundra lacks. They can also settle directly on tundra for faith. On the other hand, Canada is stuck working food negative tiles so they're no use early game, except for camps which as I've noted from my last few rolls isn't guaranteed at all.

If there is little or no Tundra, Russia is still better because they grab more tiles and still have their Lavra.

I guarantee that the only way I'm missing out on Dance of the Aurora and Work Ethic as Canada is if Russia's in the game (since even on deity I'll just ignore training units and go holy site > prayers ASAP) . So while Russia may be slightly better at getting them it's not like Canada's a slouch at it either. In games where they're not head to head both will have access to each of those two things, and I personally think I'd take the rest of Canada's kit over Russia's.

People always knock Canada's early lack of food but it's not like Russia is any better.
 

Archon_Wing

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I guarantee that the only way I'm missing out on Dance of the Aurora and Work Ethic as Canada is if Russia's in the game (since even on deity I'll just ignore training units and go holy site > prayers ASAP) . So while Russia may be slightly better at getting them it's not like Canada's a slouch at it either. In games where they're not head to head both will have access to each of those two things, and I personally think I'd take the rest of Canada's kit over Russia's.

People always knock Canada's early lack of food but it's not like Russia is any better.

You can, but then you have to found a religion as Canada, meaning your Holy Sites aren't half off and give twice as many prophet points, and you probably will need to run God-King while Russia can just run the production card. So Russia can probably just build a shrine instead.

The worse the map gets, the worse off Canada gets too.

It's not just a food issue in that Canada must also spend builder charges to use their abilities beyond buying them cheaper (which is good mind you but not overwhelmingly so.)

I think Canada is only better if they're surrounded by other civs, since you can avoid being attacked by them. But assuming Tundra spawns you won't have many neighbors.... except Russia I guess.
 
Last edited:
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You can, but then you have to found a religion as Canada, meaning your Holy Sites aren't half off and give twice as many prophet points, and you probably will need to run God-King while Russia can just run the production card. So Russia can probably just build a shrine instead.

Right, and I'm not denying that head to head Russia will be better and getting to an early religion than Canada. All I'm saying is that in virtually any other game where Russia isn't an opponent, it's still really easy to do with Canada. Maybe it will take me longer to build that holy site but when I can build it early on (when I'd be building up a defensive army in any other game with any other civilization) it's still a pretty big advantage IMO. I research Astrology first, train a single slinger while I wait, then go right to holy site > prayer spamming and get what I want in any game not involving Russia.

So head to head I think Russia is kind of Canada's kryptonite as they'll take away a pretty powerful strategy from Canada, but when they're not head to head I think it's a different can of worms. That's all I'm trying to say. I personally will take Mounties over Cossacks (just based on my personal playstyle) and The Last Best West over The Grand Embassy easily. I personally like the flexibility I get from Four Faces of Peace but Mother Russia is pretty good as well. I haven't messed around with the nerfed Lavra yet but I'm sure it's still better than Hockey Rinks... but Rinks aren't bad either.

It's not just a food issue in that Canada must also spend builder charges

Fair enough, but I think that's at least somewhat offset by the fact I can get by with a ridiculously low number of troops. Time that used to be spent training units can now go towards builders, and any gold I would've spent on troops can now go to builders as well.
 

Archon_Wing

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So head to head I think Russia is kind of Canada's kryptonite

Ultimately, I think that's the main thing wrong with Russia. They are kryptonite to anyone trying to go for religion or culture and while that's been addressed, it's still a bit oppressive.
 

Conquistador_514

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Mar 1, 2021
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Canada
I'm Canadian and honestly don't even think Canada should be in the game period, Australia too for that matter, so I go with Mother Russia being better in Tundra or without Tundra for life.
 
Joined
Oct 17, 2017
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Texas
I agree with most other people that Canada is the better tundra civ, but not necessarily the better civ overall.

Canada can completely thrive in the tundra with farms while Russia needs non-tundra tiles in their cities to even think of surviving.
 
Joined
Dec 28, 2020
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Macedon
Like others have said, Canada is the better purely tundra Civ, but as a question of which Civ is better overall, that's a bit more complex. I'd like to examine our options here and analyze each Civ's strengths and weaknesses.
  • Russia
    • Russia is a jack of all trades, master of all. It's absurd flexibility and diverse set of general strengths ensures you can sufficiently compete for a victory type no matter who is in the game. Whether it be amassing swaths of production using Dance of the Aurora + Work Ethic, rushing to snag every Great Person in the game with the Lavra's GPP, getting your first pick of religion and endless Faith to supply your missionaries, or choosing instead to weaponize that Faith for a Monumentality Golden Age. And that's not even mentioning Jesuit Education, Naturalists, Grand Master's Chapel, or Rock Bands! Point being, Russia has a lot of strengths and a lot of synergies, meaning they can attempt anything they'd like. Additionally, they get this all fairly early on. Your Lavra can be one of the first placed districts in the entire game, and all of your bonuses (beside the Cossack and Peter's ability) apply immediately. To make things better, they stay strong throughout the entire game. This is a Civ that has only grown stronger over time.
  • Canada
    • O Canada... things are a bit different for our home and native land. You are just as strong as Russia I'd say, but in different ways and at different times. Laurier's ability comes into play pretty early (all you need is a builder and a tundra spawn), and the surprise war immunity of their Civ ability is also immediately applicable, but the Diplo Favor stuff is all mid to late game oriented. It doesn't help that both of their uniques are tucked in late in the Civic Tree, meaning that if Canada wants to tap into their strength they need to have very strong Culture generation. But if they can survive until their power spike, it's a non-stop sprint to the finish line. Ice Hockey Rinks aren't crucial for Canadian victory, but they perfectly setup for your Mounties with extra Appeal for better parks and extra Culture to get them faster. Once your Mounties hit, though, you can crank out tourism like no other, as long as you've been planning well. Your Appeal should already be decent thanks to those Theater Squares and Entertainment Complexes you were building (as both give +1 Appeal), meaning you can spam out National Parks as fast as you can make them. Couple that with a Modern Era Golden Age and the Wish You Were Here dedication (double tourism from parks!), you should have no issue whatsoever winning a Culture game. And with all of that tourism, you'll be getting Diplo Favor also. It's fair to say that Canada is less well-rounded, but they have a late game power spike as high as unemployment rates in 2020. If you can survive with them, you will thrive.
 

Menocchio

Warlord
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Mar 18, 2021
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Montereale
Canada's need for early builders is mitigated by the fact that they are the only civilisation in the game which can comfortably run a starting build order of Scout > Builder, or if you want to be extra bold, open with a Builder. Other civilisations will not be exploring the tundra for a long while yet so you do not have to worry so much about losing on tribal villages, though you do have to consider how much you value city-state first meets (especially for Religious city-states if you want an early pantheon). If you have a lot of woods then go for Magnus to start in combination with your early Builder in order to get your earliest district up, either a Holy Site or a Campus. Chopping out a Holy Site is fine and helps close the gap with Russia's Lavra discount. Otherwise, you can use Liang instead and put down mines and then farms wherever you can.

Canada does not have the explosive start that Russia gets from its +1 Faith and Production automatically on all tundra tiles, but if you do focus Faith and follow up in Classical with Monumentality, then you catch up very quickly, especially with Liang. Do not underestimate how incredibly fast your cities will grow thanks to your farms: no one else can match up to Canada's outrageously healthy beginning-of-the-game farms. I have not played a single game as Canada in which I did not achieve the world's first 10 population city.

Russia in contrast is not really a tundra civilisation. They want to settle only as much tundra as necessary, because at the end of the day the only way they can really exploit it is through Holy Sites and Dance of the Aurora. Otherwise, after the early game those slightly boosted tundra tiles do not help much, and Russia will want to settle along the edge of tundra, just enough for Holy Sites to get a full +6 terrain adjacency - which still puts them in the range of where other civilisations will want to settle, too. Canada, meanwhile, can settle completely freely and build civilian units almost without a care, settling faraway tundra spots and back-filling with Monumentality. You simply do not have to worry about your best settling spots being stolen, or your cities being forward-settled, because no one else really wants or will settle in tundra before you already have a chance to. All you have to worry about is making sure that your civilian units are protected from the copious barbarians that litter tundra regions.

Others have mentioned it before, but Canada has the single most broken ability in the game, quite literally: the AI cannot declare war on you in the early game. You only have to build a defensive military against the AI if you are in a situation where a joint war could be declared on you, because otherwise the AI uses surprise wars for everything.

Russia certainly has a stronger early game because of its instant pantheon and cheap Lavras combined with Work Ethic, but once Canada acquires Monumentality Russia simply has no more advantages. Those unimproved tundra tiles are very sad, but once they have farms and mines on them, they are among the best tiles in the game. Ignore camps, even ignore lumber mills if you do not mind appeal penalties because Construction takes a bit of time to get to. If you need money, sell your copious extra strategic resources to the AI, because all strategic resources except horses spawn on tundra and each copy you own counts as two. Canada can cultivate more land and build bigger cities, which means more districts and more Science/Culture from Pingala and certain religious beliefs. Why choose tall or wide when you can play Canada and do both?
 
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