Russia or Canada poll

[Leucarum]

If it can happen, I'd be happy to hear about it. All I know is that a) every time I try to get an AI to declare on me as Canada, I can't do it, and b) all anybody has ever been able to give me here any time I bring it up is anecdotal evidence ("I think I've seen the AI go to war with Canada before") or a provide a situation that doesn't really prove anything (ie, Canada gets declared on... but only because someone declared on their ally and not actually Canada).

I'm about to start a new game as Canada right now. We'll see if things go any differently this time.

I have definitely had Cleo and Saladin denounce me early. I guess having no faith and no millitary are likely triggers for an AI denouncement depending on how you are playing your game as Canada. Only Cleo turned it into a declaration though.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Well I think that's another issue. A good chunk of Canada's strength comes from the AI being dumb as bricks. While that's always true to a degree, that ability is completely dependent on it, making them better on Deity then they really should be.

To make matters worse, it seems like the AI has regressed in being able to use CBs over the years.

And yea I've never been attacked as Canada.... but with every other civ it's a surprise war now when this wasn't the case in the past.

 

[canadamufc]

There is a reason that when you're denounced by the AI they still declare a surprise war, oh right, that's because they can't use casus belli. Even if they do, it's so rare that you probably shouldn't even worry about it. It certainly can happen, but it's just a non-issue.

Obviously in some cases it's difficult or even impossible to avoid denouncement, but it can be doable with delegations and gifts.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Hmm, come to think about it, I've never been denounced as Canada except when I occupied someone's cities. While I almost never declare war as Canada, defense pacts and emergencies are another story.

And AI Canada has never declared war on me. :O

 

[bengalryan9]

I have definitely had Cleo and Saladin denounce me early. I guess having no faith and no millitary are likely triggers for an AI denouncement depending on how you are playing your game as Canada. Only Cleo turned it into a declaration though.

Getting denounced is a lot different from actually having someone declare war on you. I've played games as Canada where I literally denounce every AI I might, every chance I get, and not once have I had war declared on me no matter how much I try to agitate them.

My thought process used to be that it was because the AI would never use cassus belli matter what, but that changed in a patch a while back. The AI *will* use cassus belli from time to time, but I've never seen them do it against Canada. I can't help but wonder if it's not a programming issue somewhere... the game text says "immunity to surprise wars", but maybe something was messed up somewhere making it so that the AI will never declare *any* war against Canada. Not sure!

Just my observations, though.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Yeah yeah, Canada om deity is like playing on settler difficulty, absolutely.
Let's talk when we're not playing make believe, huh?

Hyperbole, but for someone that just wants a Deity win without cheesing settings, Canada's not a bad choice if they're not horrid with Diplomacy. If you send a delegation it still increases the time it takes to denounce you (I've never been denounced as them on any difficulty though)

It's probably a -1 level of difficulty.

OTOH, I wouldn't oversell the bonus because Barbarians still exist too and winning peacefully is still the most difficult path especially on land limited maps. And from an efficiency perspective, they're still low tier, and would be absolute bottom if the AI knew how to use CBs more. Either way, not in Russia's league, or even enough to carry their coat.

I made a poll on this matter btw in another thread and it does seem the AI's been really bad at declaring war that are not surprises.

 

[TCBB]

all anybody has ever been able to give me here any time I bring it up is anecdotal evidence ("I think I've seen the AI go to war with Canada before"

FFIW, my own completely anecdotal experience says it *can* happen. Hotseat game, one of the AIs (Arabia) killed my city-state (Bologna), so I denounced him as Canada to liberate it. Promptly forgot what I’d done it (because the turns in hotseat games take forever), but Arabia soon repaid me by declaring a formal war.

But I completely agree with your overall assessment: in no other game as Canada (three other games, I think?) have I been declared war on. I’m almost tempted to say that, because it was hotseat (I.e. a type of multiplayer game), maybe the AI’s behaviour changed compared to singeplayer?

I say this because I’ve noticed that, when you play ‘multiplayer’ games where there’s also AI present, the AI never accepts your delegation on the turn you meet them — something they always do in singleplayer. So perhaps there’s something different about ‘multiplayer’ which makes the AI more aggressive and, by default, more likely to declare a successful formal war

 

[bengalryan9]

Hyperbole, but for someone that just wants a Deity win without cheesing settings, Canada's not a bad choice if they're not horrid with Diplomacy. If you send a delegation it still increases the time it takes to denounce you (I've never been denounced as them on any difficulty though)

...and let's not pretend that defending yourself against an AI attack is all that difficult either. I don't pick Canada because war is too difficult for me, I pick them because it removes the tediousness of having to fend off a bunch of AI units that aren't actually going to accomplish anything. I pick them because it removes an annoyance.

I don't know that I agree that it makes for all that much of an easier game (let alone one on Settler level... hyperbole is right, lol), either. Besides the fact you'll have a lot of subpar tiles (even with Canada's bonuses), if you play them how they are meant to be played/roleplay them you won't declare wars either... and what's the one strategy people argue time and time again is the best way to gain an advantage? Conquering a neighbor. Playing as a 100% peaceful builder is far from the easiest way to play the game as @Archon_Wing pointed out, and while you don't *have* to play that way as Canada I'd imagine most of us do.

FFIW, my own completely anecdotal experience says it *can* happen. Hotseat game, one of the AIs (Arabia) killed my city-state (Bologna), so I denounced him as Canada to liberate it. Promptly forgot what I’d done it (because the turns in hotseat games take forever), but Arabia soon repaid me by declaring a formal war.

But I completely agree with your overall assessment: in no other game as Canada (three other games, I think?) have I been declared war on. I’m almost tempted to say that, because it was hotseat (I.e. a type of multiplayer game), maybe the AI’s behaviour changed compared to singeplayer?

I say this because I’ve noticed that, when you play ‘multiplayer’ games where there’s also AI present, the AI never accepts your delegation on the turn you meet them — something they always do in singleplayer. So perhaps there’s something different about ‘multiplayer’ which makes the AI more aggressive and, by default, more likely to declare a successful formal war

Interesting, and a good point as far as MP behavior is concerned. Haven't really tested that at all, personally.

 

[Archon_Wing]

I don't know that I agree that it makes for all that much of an easier game (let alone one on Settler level... hyperbole is right, lol), either. Besides the fact you'll have a lot of subpar tiles (even with Canada's bonuses), if you play them how they are meant to be played/roleplay them you won't declare wars either... and what's the one strategy people argue time and time again is the best way to gain an advantage? Conquering a neighbor. Playing as a 100% peaceful builder is far from the easiest way to play the game as @Archon_Wing pointed out, and while you don't *have* to play that way as Canada I'd imagine most of us do.

Well, the bonus is very real in the sense that if you have a coastal start where barbs can't really spawn so you know you can just build settler(s) at the start without worrying about much and you have 5 turns warning. And of course, neither Canada nor Russia must settle in the Tundra because they have stuff that works without it, but admittingly it is a little boring. Canada can buy tundra anyways.

Incidentally I would say the bonus is not appreciated if either your diplomatic skills are too good (it's too easy to keep people friends once they become friends) or you ignore diplomacy completely so you just see that as an obstruction. But many players probably fall in between, so Canada's bonuses will help them somewhere and honestly that is better than many other civ bonuses people tend to hype but none of that matters if you don't make it out of classical. I do hear stories of people never getting declared on ever, or they can beat everything with 1 unit so maybe Canada is truly useless in their eyes, so /shrugs.

I do believe the ability scales with difficulty since lower difficulties the AI can't really kill you if it tried. That has to be appreciated, somewhere.

FFIW, my own completely anecdotal experience says it *can* happen. Hotseat game, one of the AIs (Arabia) killed my city-state (Bologna), so I denounced him as Canada to liberate it. Promptly forgot what I’d done it (because the turns in hotseat games take forever), but Arabia soon repaid me by declaring a formal war.

But I completely agree with your overall assessment: in no other game as Canada (three other games, I think?) have I been declared war on. I’m almost tempted to say that, because it was hotseat (I.e. a type of multiplayer game), maybe the AI’s behaviour changed compared to singeplayer?

I say this because I’ve noticed that, when you play ‘multiplayer’ games where there’s also AI present, the AI never accepts your delegation on the turn you meet them — something they always do in singleplayer. So perhaps there’s something different about ‘multiplayer’ which makes the AI more aggressive and, by default, more likely to declare a successful formal war

Weird stuff happens in hotseat games, for sure.

Also was it quick speed? I think the AI refuses to accept immediate delegations on faster speeds than normal. That does put a damper on Canada there.

 

[bengalryan9]

Well, the bonus is very real in the sense that if you have a coastal start where barbs can't really spawn so you know you can just build settler(s) at the start without worrying about much and you have 5 turns warning.

In the game I just started as Canada (Deity, continents, barb mode on)I spawned towards the center with a bunch of tundra directly to the north, and I didn't train a single unit (wanted to see just how far I could push my luck). I went monument > builder > settler > holy site > prayers for my open in the capital. Even with just my one starting warrior I was able to keep barbarians at bay with no real issue - when you no that's all you have to worry about, you can get by with a lot less defense than some tend to think. I did gold buy two scouts but I sent them far away so they had no impact on barb defense. I just handled a few wondering barbs and let the camps sit there until later on when I finally trained 2 more units to help clear them.

You do sacrifice a bit if you try something like this. You'll leave a lot of era score from clearing out the camps early on the table, and I've missed out on a lot of eurekas and inspirations I would've gotten in a typical game. That cancels out some of the advantages you might gain from skipping defense to go right into building infrastructure, though I'm still doing fine.

One other casual observation I've made in several games as Canada - when the AI can't declare on the player early on they seem far more likely to go to early war with each other instead.

 

[Leucarum]

One other casual observation I've made in several games as Canada - when the AI can't declare on the player early on they seem far more likely to go to early war with each other instead

Or with city states. Either way they burn through their starting armies pretty fast...

 

[Starina]

Maybe someone has already suggested this, but I think it would be great if Canada could build national parks on water tiles: lakes and sea

 

[Socrates99]

Maybe someone has already suggested this, but I think it would be great if Canada could build national parks on water tiles: lakes and sea

I've always thought Lakes should be a viable tile for parks anyway.

 

[whyidie]

Inspired by this thread, I tried a couple of games as each Civ. A note on my skill - I don't play very well. I lose at deity more often than I win and have been surprised by the AI even on King.

Spoiler Results of games :

Russia is still amazing. Played 5 at deity with three wins. One clear-cut loss as I abandoned after being slow to manage multiple barb camps and didn't found a religion. Had another non-tundra roll that I had no interest in playing even though it was a production rich start.

Canada I need help with. Its like the map script knows I don't know how to play Canada. In each of my rolls I was presented with low production starts. In each roll I had my choice of low production plains or low production tundra. Only in my last game did I choose to go tundra first. Because of the low production I was slow to get religion. Did not run holy site prayers because I naively thought DotA would be there by the time I got going but it wasn't there in any of my three games.

Spoiler Whats the settling strategy with Canda ? :

I'll adjust and prioritize prayers and hope for less flatland on my next roll.

But whats the tactic for Canada in terms of settling ? With Russia I settle on the fringe of tundra first, tundra, then non-tundra unless I have an amazing spot. With Canada do I prioritize tundra first or stick with sites that border the tundra ?

As of now I just don't see how Canada can compete with the early faith that ensures DotA and Work Ethic and half cost larva that ensures each city gets to utilize Work Ethic earlier. Even though the Canada rolls were much worse than my Russia rolls, I could have managed with Russia due to passive faith and half cost holy site.

I'm assuming Canada is essentially the same play, but you're slower to start (larva) and it has an additional boost later that Russia lacks.

 

[Socrates99]

If the poll question didn't include the word "overall" I think itd be more competitive, at least imo. Canada can build better tundra only cities but Russia is overall a better civ for actually getting a victory. I'm honestly surprised at how many votes Canada is getting. They definitely got buffed to where they're fun to play but Russia gets the lavra and bigger starting borders which snowball (pun intended) into a real easy victory. Peter's always been top tier imo and all the buffs to faith generation have only made him better.

With either of them I think you'd want the fringe of tundra. In the early game you still want non tundra tiles to work. That's the most important time for any game. I'd say with Canada you want fringe of tundra for at least your first three cities to get things rolling. This would also help you lock down your empire which your first few cities should be all about. Once you have your borders set then you can start filling in those spots nearer the poles.

 

[Menocchio]

With Canada, settle exclusively on tundra and prioritise builders and Mining. Non-tundra tiles are strictly worse for you than tundra as soon as you build even a single mine in your capital, because it will immediately be an at least 4 production tile.

If you can get Dance of the Aurora - good, use that and make productive Work Ethic-Holy Sites. If you cannot - do not worry so much about Holy Sites. Compared to other cultural civilisations, Canada does not need as much faith and should not invest too much in the early game resource sink that is religion. Focus on Campuses instead like most civilisations should, and make sure you get a Government Plaza up immediately so that you can run for Ancestral Hall before mass-settling your tundra. You do not need to worry so much about unlocking technologies to get better units because you mostly will not use them except against barbarians, but you do want to unlock new strategic resources as soon as you can, because you will be selling them constantly to the AI. You also generally want to think about which of your cities are going to be long-term National Park zones with Preserves and all, and which of your cities will focus on heavy industry with lots of mines and farms.

Holy Sites are inherently a gamble: if you build them and can get good bonuses from them like Work Ethic or Choral Music or from civilisation/leader abilities, then you come out richer. If you lose out on these bonuses, then you are deeply behind both religious winners and civilisations that focused on Campuses first. This is why AI Kongo used to be so terrifying: most AIs used to prioritise Holy Sites and so could often end up with a slower start, but Kongo cannot bui8ld Holy Sites, leading to them at one point being one of the most competitive AIs. More recent patches have made AIs emphasise science more, though, so I have not noticed Kongo being such an outlier any more. Preserves tipped the scale further in this regard, enabling reliable faith gain even without Holy Sites.

 

[Leucarum]

With Canada, settle exclusively on tundra and prioritise builders and Mining. Non-tundra tiles are strictly worse for you than tundra as soon as you build even a single mine in your capital, because it will immediately be an at least 4 production tile.

There is an argument to hold off until you have ancestral hall I think. The AI won't usually colonize the tundra anyway so you can take some of their land by prioritizing non tundra. At the same time, getting instant builders can really help you get those tundra cities set up, at the cost that the advantages will come slightly later on...

However you approach it, as you alluded, the changes have given Canada a lot more choices in terms of what to prioritize and how to play.

 

[whyidie]

With Canada, settle exclusively on tundra and prioritise builders and Mining. Non-tundra tiles are strictly worse for you than tundra as soon as you build even a single mine in your capital, because it will immediately be an at least 4 production tile.

If you can get Dance of the Aurora - good, use that and make productive Work Ethic-Holy Sites. If you cannot - do not worry so much about Holy Sites. Compared to other cultural civilisations, Canada does not need as much faith and should not invest too much in the early game resource sink that is religion. Focus on Campuses instead like most civilisations should, and make sure you get a Government Plaza up immediately so that you can run for Ancestral Hall before mass-settling your tundra. You do not need to worry so much about unlocking technologies to get better units because you mostly will not use them except against barbarians, but you do want to unlock new strategic resources as soon as you can, because you will be selling them constantly to the AI. You also generally want to think about which of your cities are going to be long-term National Park zones with Preserves and all, and which of your cities will focus on heavy industry with lots of mines and farms.

Holy Sites are inherently a gamble: if you build them and can get good bonuses from them like Work Ethic or Choral Music or from civilisation/leader abilities, then you come out richer. If you lose out on these bonuses, then you are deeply behind both religious winners and civilisations that focused on Campuses first. This is why AI Kongo used to be so terrifying: most AIs used to prioritise Holy Sites and so could often end up with a slower start, but Kongo cannot bui8ld Holy Sites, leading to them at one point being one of the most competitive AIs. More recent patches have made AIs emphasise science more, though, so I have not noticed Kongo being such an outlier any more. Preserves tipped the scale further in this regard, enabling reliable faith gain even without Holy Sites.

This has me back on track. Prior to this was playing a lot of King then Russia on deity (like King), lost the science discipline. Map gifted me an easy decision as it placed me far away from non-tundra lands. Starting to see some of the benefits. Builder focus has my cities growing, production is solid even without religion (Russia exists so I abandoned religion) and I have some non-tundra lands I can use as forts.

Still a little slow on cities but thats due to my chop aversion. Looking like 6 pop heavy but not production crippled cities by T100.

I'm starting to understand Canada.

 

[konokoni]

Playing a game as Khmer right now, with another (human) player as Russia. There was no chance in hell I would beat him to the first Pantheon or Prophet, even if I were to beeline Astrology and immediately, build a holy site and run projects. After all, Russia can just do that too (and do it quicker since Lavras are cheap and they have a production bonus in tundra). While the Khmer don't need DotA, they really do want Work Ethic to allow for More Farms(TM), but with Russia in the game, that just won't happen.

Now, Canada is not Khmer, so losing the religion race isn't a huge blow for them. However, it does highlight the reason Russia is the better Tundra civ: Russia's start is so strong, with DotA + Work Ethic practically guaranteed, that they're solidly better than Canada and in the running for top civs overall. Canada becomes strong eventually, but Russia is great from the moment they found their first city. Once they get Astrology, they have everything they need to succeed. This is exacerbated by the fact that faith is now "Turbo Gold" and can be used to buy settlers, builders, traders, military units and districts (sometimes with discounts) as the game goes on. So while Canada may have the edge in production and growth (eventually), Russia can more than make up any gap between the two with its ludicrous faith income. By the time Canada is up and running, Russia is already working on their win condition of choice, be it religion, culture or domination.

It's not that Canada is bad, it's just that Russia is really, really good. Even though Canada was buffed and Russia was nerfed, the latter's strong start wasn't impacted by the changes. Since that's their true gimmick IMO, they're just as strong as ever and the clear winner between the two.

 

[Archon_Wing]

Inspired by this thread, I tried a couple of games as each Civ. A note on my skill - I don't play very well. I lose at deity more often than I win and have been surprised by the AI even on King.

Spoiler Results of games :

Russia is still amazing. Played 5 at deity with three wins. One clear-cut loss as I abandoned after being slow to manage multiple barb camps and didn't found a religion. Had another non-tundra roll that I had no interest in playing even though it was a production rich start.

Canada I need help with. Its like the map script knows I don't know how to play Canada. In each of my rolls I was presented with low production starts. In each roll I had my choice of low production plains or low production tundra. Only in my last game did I choose to go tundra first. Because of the low production I was slow to get religion. Did not run holy site prayers because I naively thought DotA would be there by the time I got going but it wasn't there in any of my three games.

Spoiler Whats the settling strategy with Canda ? :

I'll adjust and prioritize prayers and hope for less flatland on my next roll.

But whats the tactic for Canada in terms of settling ? With Russia I settle on the fringe of tundra first, tundra, then non-tundra unless I have an amazing spot. With Canada do I prioritize tundra first or stick with sites that border the tundra ?

As of now I just don't see how Canada can compete with the early faith that ensures DotA and Work Ethic and half cost larva that ensures each city gets to utilize Work Ethic earlier. Even though the Canada rolls were much worse than my Russia rolls, I could have managed with Russia due to passive faith and half cost holy site.

I'm assuming Canada is essentially the same play, but you're slower to start (larva) and it has an additional boost later that Russia lacks.

The strategy of Canada is to play like a civ without bonus initially (because that's exactly what it is) except you have more leeway to forward settle your rivals, and then settle into the tundra when you've gotten some gold to buy woods and whatnot, and chop out districts/wonders. Later on your cities are mostly about Hockey Rinks, Parks, and Preserves.