Russian Christmas gift to Ukraine

[Rossiya]

Will this cause a surge of migration to the UK? I hope so.

 

[Gelion]

In that case I hope Ukraine salvages all of the piping infrastructure running to Europe and leaves Russia afloat in its ass smelling natural gas.

That would be breaking a contract an leaving the country is s@@t just to piss of the Russians. Oh, wait, thats okay.

In my view, this is a dealer-addict situation. First Russia made Ukraine dependant on its gas (either by means of central planning during the soviet times or low gas prices in the post-soviet era). Now, when the addict can't live without it, the dealer is taking advantage of the situation. In this case he wants the addicted girl to be his slut.

Capitalism? It's more like serfdom.

But again, I don't blame solely the Russians, Ukraine needs to adapt, by the terms of my analogy it needs to recover from its addiction. EU should help and act as a mediator between Russia and Ukraine.

Would you care to apply the same logic to Europe/US and colonial nations? Standards? Roads? Language? Natural resources?

 

[Winner]

Not Ukraine. Ukrainian government, some Ukraininan people, Georgian leadership, some members of the EU chiely US. The rest are quite sane.

Yes, we're all planning to attack you, but you're being perfectly sane and rational. Right...

 

[Gelion]

Yes, we're all planning to attack you, but you're being perfectly sane and rational. Right...

I do not see any logic in this sentance except the fact that you are probably delusional

 

[Winner]

That would be breaking a contract an leaving the country is s@@t just to piss of the Russians. Oh, wait, thats okay.

So, if Ukraine used your own menthods (pressure and extortion) against Russia itself, you'd get pissed. Oh wow, really? How unexpected! So perhaps you could stop using natural gas as a stick against Juščenko and make a compromise.

 

[Winner]

I do not see any logic in this sentance except the fact that you are probably delusional

Again, you believe in a worldwide conspiracy to attack Russia, but you say that those who find that ridiculous are in fact delusional.

Riiight. The only one delusional here is you.

 

[Gelion]

So, if Ukraine used your own menthods (pressure and extortion) against Russia itself, you'd get pissed. Oh wow, really? How unexpected! So perhaps you could stop using natural gas as a stick against Juščenko and make a compromise.

Compromise? With a person who is put in charge just to undermine Russian position?

Again, you believe in a worldwide conspiracy to attack Russia, but you say that those who find that ridiculous are in fact delusional.

Not a conspiracy. Simple power struggle that, if left unchecked, will lead to war.

Riiight. The only one delusional here is you.

<its really fun barking, is it not? >

 

[Alpine Trooper]

That would be breaking a contract an leaving the country is s@@t just to piss of the Russians. Oh, wait, thats okay.

They're not a sovereign nation if they cannot remove that piping without fear of Russian retaliation. What else does Ukraine rely on that Russia supplies?

 

[Gelion]

They're not a sovereign nation if they cannot remove that piping without fear of Russian retaliation. What else does Ukraine rely on that Russia supplies?

Sure, go for broke! Nuke the whole place so that radiation might flow towards Russia. I doubt most of the people in that country are as stupid... or that other people that care would allow it to happen.

 

[Alpine Trooper]

Ukraine also relies on oil from Russia. We must apply the same logic in this thread to that resource. Ukraine must accept the price Russia sets for oil so long as it imports oil from Russia.

Therefore we must accept in North America that we must pay the Saudis the price they set for oil. But we complain about it and try to hold them accountable. Why does this double standard exist?

 

[Snorrius]

They're not a sovereign nation if they cannot remove that piping without fear of Russian retaliation. What else does Ukraine rely on that Russia supplies?

Actually, if they remove pipes it is not Russia's wrath they should fear but Europe's. Ukraine's position is weak because it is not supported but Europe which is interested in stable gas flows at first place. If Ukraine will start mass stealing of gas or stop flows for whatever reasons and will not listen to Europe's warnings, it will be EU who will suffer most, and severe consequences for Ukraine should be expected.

As Winner said, Ukrainians should deal with this "addiction" if they really intend to be sovereign nation and want to be hostile to Russia.

 

[Alpine Trooper]

Actually, if they remove pipes it is not Russia's wrath they should fear but Europe's. Ukraine's position is weak because it is not supported but Europe which is interested in stable gas flows at first place. If Ukraine will start mass stealing of gas or stop flows for whatever reasons and will not listen to Europe's warnings, it will be EU who will suffer most, and severe consequences for Ukraine should be expected.

As Winner said, Ukrainians should deal with this "addiction" if they really intend to be sovereign nation and want to be hostile to Russia.

You make threats towards Ukraine then complain about hostility towards Russia. Meanwhile the entire objective of lowering the output of natural gas is to undermine an independent government.

Russian hypocrisy is legendary, try someone else.

 

[Gelion]

You make threats towards Ukraine then complain about hostility towards Russia. Meanwhile the entire objective of lowering the output of natural gas is to undermine an independent government.

Russian hypocrisy is legendary, try someone else.

What threats please? "Pay for our gas or else we stop selling?"

 

[Snorrius]

You make threats towards Ukraine then complain about hostility towards Russia. Meanwhile the entire objective of lowering the output of natural gas is to undermine an independent government.

Infant talks. Ukrainians should become adults in political sense and understand there is no free lunch. If they want to be independent, they have to become ones, not to whine about gas prices. When everyone helps you and provide you free goodies, it is not independency - it is freeloading. Independency is about country's ability to overcome hardships and obstacles. You should also remember that Russia is also sovereign state and have every right to press Ukraine about payments for gas. Any moral obligations Russia may had towards Ukraine have been long expired.

 

[Defiant47]

I've never really understood why anti-Russian Westerners can't get it through their heads that Russia's getting something for their gas too. It's like Russia is supposed to give gas to everyone like a good dog, and apparently at whatever prices Europe wants too! The moment Russia decides to stop shipping gas, for whatever reason whatsoever (they are all acceptable since it's their gas), the back-lash is immediate and severe. It's as if it's not Russia's gas, it's Europe's, and Russia is holding it back.

The realism of capitalism means that I can withhold selling my gas whenever I want and to whoever I want. It's my gas, I'll try to get the best price for it, and if I decide that I'd rather hang on to it for now so I can take some (explosive) baths, then I can do that.

What is Russia supposed to do in this case? Give lower prices just because? Why don't you just go one step further and demand they give free gas to everyone?

 

[Alpine Trooper]

Infant talks. Ukrainians should become adults in political sense and understand there is no free lunch. If they want to be independent, they have to become ones, not to whine about gas prices. When everyone helps you and provide you free goodies, it is not independency - it is freeloading. Independency is about country's ability to overcome hardships and obstacles. You should also remember that Russia is also sovereign state and have every right to press Ukraine about payments for gas. Any moral obligations Russia may had towards Ukraine have been long expired.

Your say Ukraine is not yet independent and you suggest the path to independence as a nation is energy independence from Russia. This only furthers my point that cost of energy is hardly a concern of Russia and this is merely an attempt at interfering in the politics of another nation.

As for moral obligations, Russia was never an authority on morality and I doubt it ever will be. Your government is extremely corrupt and consistently engages in violent and illegal activities. This behavior doesn't surprise me I am merely pointing out the real objective Moscow has.

 

[Defiant47]

They're not a sovereign nation if they cannot remove that piping without fear of Russian retaliation. What else does Ukraine rely on that Russia supplies?

Ukraine would be unimaginably screwed right now if they removed the piping. They would end up breaking a contract with Russia and cutting off gas to Europe. Both sides would be pissed off, and they might find great difficulty in trading in the future. Military retaliation is not even necessary.

In my view, this is a dealer-addict situation. First Russia made Ukraine dependant on its gas (either by means of central planning during the soviet times or low gas prices in the post-soviet era). Now, when the addict can't live without it, the dealer is taking advantage of the situation. In this case he wants the addicted girl to be his slut.

Capitalism? It's more like serfdom.

Cigarettes and tobacco are still legal.

Also, bear in mind that the "slut" remark is false analogy. It's the dealer realizing the addict can't live without it, and raising the price. If you want to postulate a Russian malignancy, that is...

 

[Alpine Trooper]

Ukraine would be unimaginably screwed right now if they removed the piping. They would end up breaking a contract with Russia and cutting off gas to Europe. Both sides would be pissed off, and they might find great difficulty in trading in the future. Military retaliation is not even necessary.

I never mentioned military retaliation but its funny how two advocates of Russian policy is this affair concluded that.

 

[Defiant47]

I never mentioned military retaliation but its funny how two advocates of Russian policy is this affair concluded that.

I assumed you meant military retaliation because otherwise it would be a useless comment. "Hey everyone! Listen to this!! If Ukraine were to break a contract it has with Russia, Russia might stop trading as much and as favourably with Ukraine!"

Please.

 

[Defiant47]

Furthermore, I don't necessarily advocate Russian policy. I simply don't demonize it, and argue with those who do.