Russian Christmas gift to Ukraine

[Alpine Trooper]

I assumed you meant military retaliation because otherwise it would be a useless comment. "Hey everyone! Listen to this!! If Ukraine were to break a contract it has with Russia, Russia might stop trading as much and as favourably with Ukraine!"

Please.

Cutting one of the leading energy sources in the world to 45 million people so you can punish it for aligning itself with the West seriously impedes on a nations sovereignty.

This isn't a matter of trading fruit. This is an essential resource.

 

[Defiant47]

Cutting one of the leading energy sources in the world to 45 million people so you can punish it for aligning itself with the West seriously impedes on a nations sovereignty.

Allow me to explain something to you. If you wish to sell some gas, you do an analysis and figure out the most profitable price for you to sell it at. If the profitable price increases, you increase it at the earliest moment you can, such as when the contract ends.

Certain things can increase or decrease the price you give to a certain nation. A friendlier relation would decrease the price and vice-versa. When the nation begins to side with others, you will logically not charge a decreased price. This is both to give the appropriate prices to appropriately close friends, as well as to encourage more to be your friends.

 

[Gelion]

Cutting one of the leading energy sources in the world to 45 million people so you can punish it for aligning itself with the West seriously impedes on a nations sovereignty.

There's something caleed contract and something called free market.

This isn't a matter of trading fruit. This is an essential resource.

If you want it then do something to get it. Pleasing Russia by not aligning with NATO might be a start. You made a point about USA being nice with Saudi Arabia. Same logic could apply here.

 

[BirraImperial]

So if Russia plays capitalism, is the big bad bear undermining Ukraine's democracy? Wow, talk about double standards in here! Russia can sell their stuff at whatever price they want, it's theirs...

 

[Alpine Trooper]

There's something caleed contract and something called free market.

If you want it then do something to get it. Pleasing Russia by not aligning with NATO might be a start. You made a point about USA being nice with Saudi Arabia. Same logic could apply here.

I am not debating the petty disagreements governments have between themselves and their differing ideologies.

I am discussing the morality of cutting fuel to 45 million innocent people for political purposes. Political purpose which ultimate goal is the acquisition of the Ukraine. There isn't a debate about whether Russia is moral or not here. It isn't.

While the reality may be that the people are at the will of their governments, I should remind you only one government in this situation allows the will of the people to influence it.

 

[Alpine Trooper]

So if Russia plays capitalism, is the big bad bear undermining Ukraine's democracy? Wow, talk about double standards in here! Russia can sell their stuff at whatever price they want, it's theirs...

Wrong, the Russian government can sell it at whatever it wants. The resource belongs to the people of Russia who have absolutely no say in anything.

 

[Gelion]

I am not debating the petty disagreements governments have between themselves and their differing ideologies.

I am discussing the morality of cutting fuel to 45 million innocent people for political purposes. Political purpose which ultimate goal is the acquisition of the Ukraine. There isn't a debate about whether Russia is moral or not here. It isn't.

Okay. So yes or no? Yes it is bad to cut gas to innocent people. I have to agree. Sadly it is the government that represents the people here, in the Iraq war, Kosovo situation, Georgian-Ossetian war and other dubious situations. Govervnments act, people pay. Is it a fault of the Ukrainian people that their government wants to ally with USA and kick Russia out? No. Will they pay for it? Most certainly either through Russian or American or domestic actions.

While the reality may be that the people are at the will of their governments, I should remind you only one government in this situation allows the will of the people to influence it.

Not sure what you are saying here.

Wrong, the Russian government can sell it at whatever it wants. The resource belongs to the people of Russia who have absolutely no say in anything.

Damn I could have sworn I had a say in something! But even if were true I'd rather have say about whether my country should invade Iraq (didn't matter anyway) than whether people should wear blue or red trousers to work (which doesnt matter anyway).

 

[BirraImperial]

Wrong, the Russian government can sell it at whatever it wants. The resource belongs to the people of Russia who have absolutely no say in anything.

I could've sworn the Russian people elected their current government, and therefore, let them in charge of dictating their countries' policies.

 

[Winner]

CNN Video

One good point - the prices of energy are falling worldwide, but Gazprom insists on more than double price for Ukraine. Given that Gazprom is controlled by the Russian government, this seems suspicious at the very least.

 

[RedRalph]

CNN Video

One good point - the prices of energy are falling worldwide, but Gazprom insists on more than double price for Ukraine. Given that Gazprom is controlled by the Russian government, this seems suspicious at the very least.

Has your gas bill gone down recently? mine hasnt

 

[Onionsoilder]

I don't see the problem here. If Ukraine didn't pay off it's debts, then Gazprom has the right to shut off their gas. As for the pricing issue, Russia has the right to sell what is theirs for whatever price they want. If it is too high, then don't buy it from them.

 

[Winner]

Has your gas bill gone down recently? mine hasnt

This was discussed here in Czech rep. too. The problem is that the deals about deliveries were made years ago, when the prices were high.

The Ukraine situation is different, they're making a new deal which should mirror the current situation on the energy markets.

Ukraine has recently received IMF help and Russia smells blood, I guess.

 

[Snorrius]

CNN Video

One good point - the prices of energy are falling worldwide, but Gazprom insists on more than double price for Ukraine. Given that Gazprom is controlled by the Russian government, this seems suspicious at the very least.

If Ukrainians do not like Russian's prices, they can buy gas from Uzbekistan - as far as I know it is about 330$ + transit fee for this year.

 

[amadeus]

There's something caleed contract and something called free market.

Neither of which you believe in.

Next.

 

[Mr. Dictator]

OH NOES! the ruskies have control over resources in their territory!!

/thread.

 

[Snorrius]

Stupidity of Ukrainians leaders is immeasurable. Gazprom proposed 250$ if they still "can not pay European prices", and those clowns declined. Now Gazprom says if Ukraine do not want discount they will have pay full price - more than 400$.

 

[Verbose]

OH NOES! the ruskies have control over resources in their territory!!

Yeah, and the Ukranian problem is that they are hooked to an old Soviet lifeline which Russia controls.

The Ukraine aren't really free to shop around, even if the system they were hooked up to in the Soviet days was a discount one. Now have to wean themselves of it, if they want to get out from under Russia. And Russia probably won't like that one bit.

Infrastructure says this is not a level playing field.

 

[Mr. Dictator]

Yeah, and the Ukranian problem is that they are hooked to an old Soviet lifeline which Russia controls.

The Ukraine aren't really free to shop around, even if the system they were hooked up to in the Soviet days was a discount one. Now have to wean themselves of it, if they want to get out from under Russia. And Russia probably won't like that one bit.

Infrastructure says this is not a level playing field.

they've had some time to make themselves energy independent.

 

[Snorrius]

The Ukraine aren't really free to shop around, even if the system they were hooked up to in the Soviet days was a discount one. Now have to wean themselves of it, if they want to get out from under Russia.

Yeah! That's what independence is about! After all, they are Europe now!

 

[Verbose]

they've had some time to make themselves energy independent.

Yup. The problem is that in a way, energy-wise they have been living above their means, using that Russian discount-gas.

It would also be easier if the Ukranians from the word "Go" had managed to decide if they wanted to stick to Russia, or veer away from it. It's been wavering back and fort for quite some time, which would seem to reflect the people itself being in two minds about it.

To take the hit of paying what it would cost to get an energy supply not dependant on Russia, the Ukraine as a whole would have had to be a lot more dedicated to that end.

Don't know what they regret more at this point; not sticking like glue to Russia, or not trying to cut the ties to Russia more definite. Possibly both.