Sailing / Exploration / Trade Routes

[gavenkoa]

I understand that Sailing opens foreign trade (usually meaning 2G instead of 1G for coastal early on).

So Sailing is somewhat interesting tech for trade (and also is required for Calendar/Compass).

Looks like I miss the point with exploration of foreign cities to enable foreign trade roots:

* is it import to explore the coastal line to foreign city?
* to every foreign city or to as many as my cities?
* is it symmetrical for both sides or only for those who invested in exploring?
* what is a typical unit used for exploration: Work Boat or Warrior?
* can I trade 1 foreign to N mine or it is 1-to-1 and I need keep exploring more foreign cities?

The problem arises because I tend to fogbust so I usually reluctant to move Warriors out of place or build one extra. Probably that is a mistake and I have to improve on that.

 

[AcaMetis]

* is it import to explore the coastal line to foreign city?

Yes. If you haven't explored the coastal line how can you be sure there even is one? Also keep in mind that Barbarian cities can ruin coastal trade routes, since they can't go through hostile culture and you can't go over Ocean pre-Astro.

* to every foreign city or to as many as my cities?

To any AI city which is connected to the AI's trade network, as that will automatically connect you to every city on said AI's trade network. That said if there's multiple paths it can be useful to have some redundancy (see above note about Barbarian cities).

* is it symmetrical for both sides or only for those who invested in exploring?

For resource trades you only need one side to have discovered a path. For trade routes you must have discovered a path yourself, otherwise you get nothing (think isolated with Astro - AIs can trade you their resources just fine, but only you get trade routes).

* what is a typical unit used for exploration: Work Boat or Warrior?

Generally whatever cheap land unit you've got available, since at that stage in the game you're worried about barbarians and aren't going to build a dedicated scout just to check out some coastal tiles. That's not to say you can't build a workboat and (temporarily) use it to explore, but your coastal exploration tends to be done by land units looking for seafood.

* can I trade 1 foreign to N mine or it is 1-to-1 and I need keep exploring more foreign cities?

You can't get infinite foreign trade routes from a limited number of foreign cities. That said you don't need to keep exploring cities, specifically, once you're connected to the AI trade network you're connected to all of their cities on said trade network automatically.

The problem arises because I tend to fogbust so I usually reluctant to move Warriors out of place or build one extra. Probably that is a mistake and I have to improve on that.

Not necessarily. Not getting your improvements or, worse, cities smashed by barbarians is worth a lot more than an extra +1 per city, especially when the AI will get the same bonus. Foreign trade routes are nice, but fogbusting definitely takes priority unless you've build The Great Wall.

 

[krikav]

Your cities have traderoutes, 1 pre-currency, 2 post-currency. If you build GLH your coastal cities will have 3 traderoutes.
These traderoutes can be filled with domestic cities (which can be duplicates) or foreign cities (which are limited to one).

Thats why it's good to settle 1-3 cities of your own, offshore. Then they will fill in the gap if there lacks AI cities to fill up traderoutes in all of your cities.
That island city of yours is good for one traderoute in each and every one of your cities, even if you have 100 of them.

 

[gavenkoa]

once you're connected to the AI trade network you're connected to all of their cities on said trade network automatically.

Thx. That is valuable part. Saves from the hassle of exploration.

your coastal exploration tends to be done by land units looking for seafood

gotcha

I saw AI exploring coat with Work boat so had wild idea human could do the same. Not cost effective though, Warrior is 15H, Chariot is 30H could be important against Archers is player skips Archery.

 

[lymond]

I saw AI exploring coat with Work boat so had wild idea human could do the same. Not cost effective though, Warrior is 15H, Chariot is 30H could be important against Archers is player skips Archery.

Depends on the map, but an exploring work boat is not a bad idea at all. Take Fractal for instance. Often you may have separated land masses and islands. An WB scout can find them and clear the fog. See if the islands are worth settling. And you may be able to connect overseas routes early to Ais on other land masses, which are more lucrative. GLH makes island settling nice, but even without it they will provide bonus to internal routes.

 

[gavenkoa]

These traderoutes can be filled with domestic cities (which can be duplicates) or foreign cities (which are limited to one).

I don't understand that. Does that mean:

* player has several slots for traterouts (depends on tech/wonder) in a city. Only one can be foreign, others are domestic (per city).

or:

* if you have access to N foreign cities and own M foreign trading slots in your empire and N < M you get only N foreign routes (in an empire)?

Thats why it's good to settle 1-3 cities of your own, offshore

That is because offshore is x2 gold? Interesting. I thought about priority to make first contact but seems I can double trade route income early with 1-3 tiny islands...

 

[krikav]

Offshore gives +100%, foregin gives +100%
So if you find an AI on some other landmass, traderoutes to their cities give you 3 commerce each in the early game, more when their cities grow large.

And yes to the second one, if N < M, then domestic cities will fill up the gap M-N.

Say you have 6 cities, one of which is offshore. And you have currency. You know 3 different AI cities.
c1 is capital, and c6 is an offshore island. AI cities are named ai1, ai2, ai3.

Then your 6 cities will look something like this:
c1: ai1+c6
c2: ai2+c6 (note duplicate)
c3: ai3+c6
c4: c1+c6
c5: c1+c6
c6: c1+c2

 

[sampsa]

I saw AI exploring coat with Work boat so had wild idea human could do the same.

It's very standard. If you only watched Lain, you'd know all this and wouldn't be re-inventing the wheel.

 

[gavenkoa]

Offshore gives +100%, foregin gives +100%
So if you find an AI on some other landmass, traderoutes to their cities give you 3 commerce each in the early game

So offshore combines with foreign additively giving +200%. Cool!

Say you have 6 cities, one of which is offshore. And you have currency. You know 3 different AI cities.
c1 is capital, and c6 is an offshore island. AI cities are named ai1, ai2, ai3.

Then your 6 cities will look something like this:
c1: ai1+c6
c2: ai2+c6 (note duplicate)
c3: ai3+c6
c4: c1+c6
c5: c1+c6
c6: c1+c2

Excellent! I didn't know that and the rule isn't that hard to remember.

 

[krikav]

If you are building GLH in isolation, ideal would be to have 3 cities onshore, and 3 offshore.
Then the 3 onshore would have island1, island2 & island3 as traderoutes.
The 3 islands would have onshore1, onshore2 & onshore3 as traderoutes.
It's in situation like that, that GLH really shines.

That, or if you happent to have multiple AIs on another landmass from yourself, but reachable pre-optics.

 

[jmas]

foreign gives +100%

Up to +150% I believe, but I think it starts at 0 or 5% and goes up 5% per turn of peace till hitting the max.

 

[Anysense]

Offshore gives +100%, foregin gives +100%
So if you find an AI on some other landmass, traderoutes to their cities give you 3 commerce each in the early game, more when their cities grow large.

And yes to the second one, if N < M, then domestic cities will fill up the gap M-N.

Say you have 6 cities, one of which is offshore. And you have currency. You know 3 different AI cities.
c1 is capital, and c6 is an offshore island. AI cities are named ai1, ai2, ai3.

Then your 6 cities will look something like this:
c1: ai1+c6
c2: ai2+c6 (note duplicate)
c3: ai3+c6
c4: c1+c6
c5: c1+c6
c6: c1+c2

C6 will have 3 traderoutes with AI cities, unless you have size 14 or larger cities on the continent.

 

[krikav]

C6 will have 3 traderoutes with AI cities, unless you have size 14 or larger cities on the continent.

You mean if c1 -> c5 is on the same landmass as the AI cities?

 

[Gumbolt]

The game tells you the % figures. If isolated it's one of the reasons the player settles island cities as it upgrade 1C trade routes to 2C. If you hve GLH that also changes things.

You gain 3% (Not 5) each turn if you are at peace with the ai and have open borders. You need 75% to get to 3C. As you get other bonuses. So open borders really are important. That and a road connection/sea route to an AI early on.

You also gain 5% for each 2 pop above 10. So a size 16 city could have +15% on trade routes. You also get similar bonus for the AI city size. So if both cities are size 16 the bonus is much higher.

The same applies for great Merchant trade routes. You get larger gold payouts if the Ai city is of a certain size. Even more with TOA.

Really helps to know the game mechanics at times. One reason you struggle on a whipping econony can often be due to lack of open borders and fact you might be auto whipping cuirs each 3-4 turns to rule the world. We delved into a lot of these numbers in the SGOTM26 for Phoenix Rising. An extra 200 gold or knowing when a harbour pays of is really useful at times. Same for civics. A trade route econmy can be a huge boost to an empire. Especially if you have GLH and 5 trade routes per city earning 4-5 commerce each. That is almost 20-25 commerce without a single cottage.

 

[Anysense]

You mean if c1 -> c5 is on the same landmass as the AI cities?

Yes, that detail slipped my mind when I looked at the chart again and thought there was something wrong with it.

 

[krikav]

Yes, that detail slipped my mind when I looked at the chart again and thought there was something wrong with it.

Could be, looking at what I wrote I'm not sure if I did a mistake or if I only was very unclear with what I ment.

 

[Gumbolt]

My only other thought is when is it ideal to get a foreign trade route. What dates do you normally target. You obviously need sailing and writing for OB. Wheel too. Then the choice of road or sea. Sea requires less worker turns but can be scuppered by barb cities.Land is an issue of how far away the AI is. On Deity not a big issue. Lower levels the Ai is not always so close. At times if you are focused on HA or another objective sometimes these little details get lost.

At times you can forget your still on 1C trade routes and this can cost your economy 5-6 commerce a turn before currency. With GLH much more.

 

[H_a_a_k_o_n]

Thats why it's good to settle 1-3 cities of your own, offshore. Then they will fill in the gap if there lacks AI cities to fill up traderoutes in all of your cities.
That island city of yours is good for one traderoute in each and every one of your cities, even if you have 100 of them.

Mostly lurking in the forums reading all the answers, and i am amazed of small tiny bits i still i haven't found out. Never thought of this, thanks!

 

[gavenkoa]

At times you can forget your still on 1C trade routes and this can cost your economy 5-6 commerce a turn before currency

That is what made me ask the question.

Now Sailing or roads (after Writing) have the same impact as Currency was in my past plays...