Saladin attacked me at Friendly!!!!!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by jerVL/kg, Jun 10, 2007.

  1. jerVL/kg

    jerVL/kg Sheep Nuker

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    I swear this has never happened before...

    Today I was playing Elizabeth on Archipelago/Epic/Prince, on my own private island with SIX gold mines & other financial goodies, so I decided to go for a Philosophy/Oracle slingshot. It paid off in spades -- the next island over held 5 civs, and both my religions spread like madness to ALL of them. Pretty soon I was making so much cash, I haven't gone below 80% science the whole game.

    Best of all was converting Saladin -- he's the #2 tech leader, and at Friendly status he's been trading his monopoly techs with me the whole game. Then...out of the blue...he DOW's me!!!!

    His invasion fleet was pathetic -- a mace & 2 catapults against my entire platoon of newly upgraded redcoats (thanks for the experience, mate!) but since I'd neglected to build any frigates (what for? we're all friends here...) so he pillaged quite a bit. Thankfully I was making so much cash, I could afford to buy-rush a full-blown navy in a couple turns. Then I discover steam power, turns out my coal's already connected! :banana:

    But just as my ironclads come online...he asks for peace. I accept, we're back at Friendly, and our trades re-establish just where we left off.

    What the heck was THAT about??!? I thought Catherine was the only civ who would backstab at Friendly...this is vanilla civ 1.61 btw.
     
  2. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    Could be he decided to attack you before you improved relations to friendly and it just took him awhile to declare. That happens sometimes.
     
  3. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    Saladin DoWed me in my shadow game of Lonely Hearths 3, when pleased and with a DP with me :crazyeye: :"Hey guy, your enemy is my enemy.... Die pagan schmunk!!!" . I didn't know that was possible to a AI to attack a DP partner....
     
  4. ParadigmShifter

    ParadigmShifter Random Nonsense Generator

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    That does sound weird. Did you declare war on someone else? That breaks a DP straight away, was Saladin a vassal of someone you attacked?
     
  5. jerVL/kg

    jerVL/kg Sheep Nuker

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    He must have been planning for a long time, because we've been friends since the middle ages! The only penalty I had with him was refusing to cancel trades with his worst enemy Asoka (who is closer and weaker than Sally...why didn't he declare on India instead??)

    I probably shouldn't have accepted peace -- now Sally's got a DP with Bismarck, who's just a few turns away from Industrialism (Redcoats vs. Panzers? Hmm...)

    At least I got my West Point unit out of the skirmish...a galleon, of all things. :lol:
     
  6. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    Saladin was the score leader and vassal of no one. I hadn't declared war to anyone. I think that he was planning to attack somewhile ago, but that my DP with Cyrus halted him for some turns, and then he accepted DP on me ( always pleased). Probably the final trigger was him losing the UN elections to me and me building the SS engine ( methinks ;) ). But I agree, it was wierd, mostly because it looked a badly prepared sea invasion even for a AI (2 destroyers + 1 battleship + 1 transport ( 1 tank, 1 gunship, 1 arty, 1 SAM Infantry))... Maybe an highly unlikely random decision?
     
  7. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    Interesting Rolo, i don't think that UN elections or you building the engine had anything to do with it. As far as i've seen in my own games and read here, the only explanation for behaviour like in your game or JerVL's is that the descision to go to war was taken before DP and before getting pleased/friendly. Once this decision has been made it stands. Would be interesting if you'd have some saves of your games to check for "enough on our hands", the decision can have been made hundreds of years before.
     
  8. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    The only save I got is the victory one ( that is in my spoiler ) :( .But probably that is the reason, because in the same game Shaka also had is hands full since he met me ( the bastard :mad: ) but he waited until he got Astro + Chemistry to attack me. Even then I believe that he hesitaded when I signed a DP with Cyrus. Maybe Saladin was waiting since that time too but he is less crazy than Shaka ( It was my first game in which an AI had guts to attack me when I had a DP with a powerful civ )
     
  9. Tatran

    Tatran Deity

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    Totally nonsense.
    I've seen enough times where a leader has enough on his hands, but doesn't
    declare on anyone and after a while the message in diplo screen is gone.
    I've played a lot of civ4 games and I've NEVER been attacked by a friendly civ, unless I was in a permanent alliance or had vassals.
     
  10. frob2900

    frob2900 Deity

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    This is true. Sometimes I get "We have enough on our hands..." when a warlike neighbor is approaching my level on the power graph. Then by building enough troops to my power graph shoots up and the diplo message goes away after a while.

    I dont know about the "Pleased/Friendly" situation, but at least w.r.t. power I'm pretty convinced the AI can regret its decisitions.

     
  11. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    it's not nonsense. you are correct that sometimes they suddenly decide that whatever the "enough" was, it went away. i don't know what makes that happen, and i don't know if that's in cases only when they were aiming for another AI and not the human, or whatever.

    i do know that you can get declared on at friendly if you haven't been friendly for long. it is possible for them to decide to declare on you while they feel pleased towards you, and then you become friends, and they will go ahead and declare on you. the time limit for that "then you become friends" isn't very long, so it doesn't happen often, and i don't have the save of where i got bit by it. so in some cases, once the decision is made, it stands.

    i do not know the difference between the case of WHEOOHRN disappearing and the case of a war declaration happening anyway. in each and every case where i've seen WHEOOHRN disappear, i was not the intended target as near as i could guess. i've never seen it disappear when i fear that they are coming for me. even when i hoped that it would disappear*giggle*. i don't know whether there's any difference in their "should i declare war on that AI" and their "should i declare war on the human" routine, but that sure sticks out to me. i'm all paranoid and i do WHEOOHRN checks a lot since i tend to be really low on the powergraph and put my faith in diplomacy and sometimes it all goes poof in my face. oopsies.

    edit: oh ok, frob2900 has seen it go away when they thought they were coming for him(?). i was a bit put off by the "nonsense" comment and didn't read your post as carefully as i ought to have at first, sorry. so that's not an AI only thing, cool.
     
  12. JoeBlade

    JoeBlade Warlord

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    I've once seen a very similar case: I wasn't friendly with Sal at the time, merely pleased. However, this was in the BC era, he was nowhere near me geographically and my power graph absolutely dwarfed his. In short, this would surely have amounted to a 'we would have nothing to gain' status had a player asked for a declaration.
    He wasn't friendly with anyone else and I still had monopoly on alphabet at the time and nobody had currency yet. He couldn't have been bribed either, in other words.

    In the end, it appears that the reason for the declaration of war was my not having open borders with Sal and thus landlocking some of his troops.
    Possibly there are other, less obvious reasons for declaring similar to this one.

    Perhaps lack of a specific resource could be a reason for DoW? There's also a rather persistent rumour that an AI 'seeing' a poorly defended city may lead to their declaring war on you, though that could be completely off the mark.
    IIRC Sal's also somewhat of a religious fanatic, though nowhere near Isabella. Still, a religious difference might have been the cause here?
     
  13. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    I can't talk about the OP game, but in mine, I was in FR and Sal was Buddhist ( he actually founded it), so only if the decision was made long ago ( when I was Hindu ) that would make sense.

    About the rumour you stated, I really believe than it could be true ( my game experience has some cases of civs circumnavigating a continent to attack a backyard whale city when they could had attacked directly), but it would explain my game, because he landed near a city with 4 mechs and 2 cavs ( hadn't research flight yet ( was is space race mode :D ))
     
  14. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    @KMadCandy , The "We have enough..." message can appear and dissapear if the AI goes after a barb city, in this case the AI has declared or is planning to declare on the barbarian state. This happens quite often and probably is also what Tatran has seen. There might be more situations that the "enough" message appears without any declaration following that i don't know about.

    I'm sure however that if the AI has made a DOW on you (and probably also against another AI) there is no way to avert that anymore, there has been quite a lot of complaining about this feature of the game. Personally i think it's a good feature because otherwise it would almost always be possible to avert a war at the last moment. As it is now it means you have to take care about diplomacy at all times or be prepared to fight.

    @tatran, Can you write your posts in a less rude manner? Thx in advance.
     
  15. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    interesting observation about war with the barbarian state, thank you! i'd never considered that *giggle*. i'm sure that's not what's going on in the game i'm currently playing. barbs are not a factor any more, since the map has no fog of war by now. we're at the "AIs have a settler uselessly roaming but there are absolutely no legal squares to settle, catch a clue guys" phase. i've been paying extremely close attention to WHEOOH, checking even civs that have been at friendly for like 37,000 turns, for advance warning about who i might be asked to join in a war against, simply because i've never ever ever played with Aggressive AI turned on before. i've seen them go from EOOH to not EOOH even while all potential targets are still alive. even in cases where it showed up when a weak civ was at war, and i thought they were going to dogpile in, it sometimes showed up and then disappeared while that original war was still happening, so the dogpile factor still existed. that makes no sense to me and i'm befuddled.

    i 100% agree with you that it's cool that you can't just escape at the last minute by buying them out with a tech or money or whatever. it does add danger/interest/excitement that you have to pay attention at all times. i say that even thought it sometimes ends in my demise. more often in my personal case, it leads to me saving the game and giving up at least for now, since it turns into "this isn't fun and it's a game, it ought to be fun". i understand why it frustrates some people, but i think it's a good design decision and strongly believe it would be a bad idea to take it away, it would make that part of the game too easy. mileages obviously vary.

    his troops were trapped by your borders? i've had that happen. it was hysterical, because i didn't realize the extent the DoWr was trapped. i built up my power, and only after many turns went by realized that the civ between us, who neither of us had OB with and that was how his troops got trapped (that civ had built a new city trapping his 2 guys that attacked me, both of his died) ... the blocking civ actually blocked him completely across the landmass. he couldn't reach me with any other troops from his cities without declaring on that leader too, but i didn't know that since i didn't have OB with someone else. when my state religion spread to the someone else, that showed a coastal city and then i knew. and laughed my head off.

    applying human logic to Civ4 often is a very bad idea. but i do know that i've done that, and i definitely don't tend to be a warmonger. if i meet egypt early on, and i get my ponies hooked up and a trade route with her, and see that it's possible to trade ponies to her ... that means she doesn't have any. this means she needs to die pronto. so i wonder... then again you might have meant the sense of "i lack it and you have it, so i'll go to war to grab yours". i've done that too, altho much later in the game.
     
  16. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    ^^So there are probably more reasons for "Enough" appearing than just barbarian state issues. I'm curious now,have to do a forum search for that. Interesting to hear that locked Ai troops can be a reason for war, i have never run into this problem myself because borders with the others are usually open,this can be a problem with japan though, his troops are locked, he won't open borders himself etc...
     
  17. KMadCandy

    KMadCandy giggling permanoob

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    in the "my troops are blocked now, they weren't last turn, i'll beat up on this chick" situation i described, he did not even have EOOH when i'd last checked (i think about 5 turns before, but i am going by memory), so it was unplanned if my memory is correct. admittedly, it was monty. he did kinda sorta not like me much (annoyed), i was low on power, we were different religions etc. he really doesn't care how far away from him you are, he's psycho, he assumes he'll win even if you have more power than he does, and he'd kill his own grandmother if no other victims were around. so he hardly counts as typical :crazyeye:. it was fun though. total losses: monty 2, kmad 0 and gained 2 exp. he signed for peace later giving me all his gold (wow, 10g). i laughed.
     
  18. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    monty's not the only one to declare in order to move his troops.
    First "real" warlords game, I tried to steal a worker from Genghis Kahn. He was on the other side of the map separated from me by (?brennus maybe?), I was the only one with writing, so he didn't have open borders with brennus.
    I didn't know the new "captured worker can't move" rule, so I lost a warrior in this experiment, but thought I was safe behind closed borders...

    Next turn, I read GK declared war on (?brennus?). He came for me, crossing enemy territory! This was one of my shortest games:blush: .
     
  19. Dirk1302

    Dirk1302 Deity

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    ^Hilarious indeed :lol: , This Genghis Khan is enormously agressive btw. Monty is mentioned most but i find GK to be at least as dangerous, you really have to keep this guy busy. Once i had bribed him to go after some weak civ, the turn he destroyed that civ he declared on me.
     
  20. Tatran

    Tatran Deity

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    Maybe this is the reason. As I said, it never happened before and I don't
    play with Aggressive AI on.

    @Dirk
    Tuurlijk joh, :mischief:
     

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