Salvador

[eyrei]

Ever since I returned from my brother's wedding in San Salvador, I have been pondering the involvement of the US in their civil war. After doing some reading, and having spoken to several natives whose families were directly affected by this conflict, I came to the conclusion that the US government labelled the anti-government forces as communist subversives so they could justify sending aid to the El Salvadoran military controlled government. This label was far from the truth, as, while they were certainly left-wing as compared to the government, they were hardly communist. Among the things they fought for were womans' rights, sanitary drinking water for all (not just the rich) and programs to bring people out of poverty (the majority of the nation to this day). This hardly sounds communist to me, but rather a legitimate uprising against a repressive government. Had the USA not given weapons and other aid to the government forces, they might have lost. What is truly disturbing is the fact that thousands of people were 'disappeared'...they were generally killed for being subversives, when often their only crime was speaking out against the government and/or not having their identification papers on them when they were accosted by government troops. If you want an example of US foreign policy quite obviously facilitating human rights abuses, including the execution of children, check into the history of the Salvadoran civil war in the late 1980s. I cannot think of any reason that validates this sort of action by a nation that supposedly stands for liberty and justice, and challenge you to do the same.

My experience in El Salvador, and what I have discovered since then has severely diminished my trust of the American government. If I was a judge, and several of the major 'players' in this tragedy were on trial, I would sentence them to torture and death, the same thing they inflicted upon the people of El Salvador for no other reason than some pitiful ideological fear of communism.

The interesting thing that occured recently was that I discovered that Oliver Stone pretty much drew the same conclusions. I doubt many of you have seen the film 'Salvador' (late 80s), but it is quite eye-opening, and in many ways sickening.

 

[eyrei]

Just to clarify for some I am not trolling for indignant responses here, but trying to open the eyes of people to this situation, and those like it that do occur in the world.

 

[Longasc]

Well, I support your observations, this really happened.

Things are even worse, things like that still happen today, and there are many things going on that find not much place in the media.

The ethnic cleansing in the Darfur area of Sudan e.g. is much more in the news in Europe than it is in the US, as we just found out and debated in the CFC-Chat.

 

[eyrei]

Well, I support your observations, this really happened.

Things are even worse, things like that still happen today, and there are many things going on that find not much place in the media.

That is another frightening thing. So few people even seem to know this happened.

The ethnic cleansing in the Darfur area of Sudan e.g. is much more in the news in Europe than it is in the US, as we just found out and debated in the CFC-Chat.

As far as I know, the US isn't supporting this. However, the entire world seems content just to sit back and watch it happen.

What ever happened to caring about our fellow humans?

 

[Duddha]

Yup, pretty much the same for all US involvment in the Third World during the Cold War.

 

[kryszcztov]

Hey, no later than today I listened to a great LP : Sandinista! by the Clash. They're talking about almost the same thing, ie. the Sandinist revolution in Nicaragua. I believe both countries share some characteristics. I'm not well aware of those revolutions in Central America, but I'm now a bit more convinced by this point of view, and how surprising ? an American guy !! Leaving in America !! What happened to the Third World is absolutely tragic, and I fear it won't end soon. Kissinger's followers have some good days to come in the sun. Oh, don't worry, the French government also made some terrible mistakes. Going to war in Indochina in the 50s and Algeria a few years later was pure nonsense.

 

[Akka]

And even if these rebels were communists, the US government wouldn't have any legitimacy to help the government to crush them. Being communist isn't a crime, AFAIK.

If you look for such situation, you can also get a glimpse at modern Greek history. You will understand why Greece had, until very recently, a deep (and justified) disgust and defiance of USA.
And you will see that keeping a murderous autocratic regime in power against the wish of the population happened even in western nations.

 

[Chieftess]

From what I know (or atleast learned), the US was fighting communism. Although, eyrei said in the debate that it was peasants and they weren't communist. So, what was the war about anyway? (I'm kind of confused about this, though). All I know is that, in the 80's, the US wanted to spread democracy and fight communism.

 

[eyrei]

From what I know (or atleast learned), the US was fighting communism. Although, eyrei said in the debate that it was peasants and they weren't communist. So, what was the war about anyway? (I'm kind of confused about this, though). All I know is that, in the 80's, the US wanted to spread democracy and fight communism.

The war was about the poor people of the country wanted to remove the repressive oligarchy.

 

[Akka]

All I know is that, in the 80's, the US wanted to spread democracy and fight communism.

Remove the "to spread democracy" part and you've got it.

 

[eyrei]

I think this Bob Dylan song pretty accurately expresses my feelings on this 'situation':

Come you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks

You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly

Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain

You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud

You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins

How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul

And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead

 

[GenMarshall]

From what I know (or atleast learned), the US was fighting communism. Although, eyrei said in the debate that it was peasants and they weren't communist. So, what was the war about anyway? (I'm kind of confused about this, though). All I know is that, in the 80's, the US wanted to spread democracy and fight communism.

Pretty much its like American Imperialism to spread Democracy. Much like in the Age of Discovery When the English Empire and the Spanish Empire wanted to exstend its infuences in the New World

 

[FredLC]

Hehehe. When I first saw this thread, I thought it referred to the city I was born, the beautiful city of Salvador, Bahia in the northeast of Brazil.

Anyway, coming from a country which suffered a dictatorship because of these silly ideological conflicts, I can relate with the people of El Salvador. It's true that in the period under which I lived the military dictatorship, I was too young to really have a clue of what was going on (I didn't had even ten years when it ended), but I have close relatives who had to endure it all, and boy, some things aren't easy to forget.

The only difference between me and Eyrey is that I didn't "loose" my trust in the USA, because I never had it. And please, don't get me wrong - while I think that this sort of stories shows that perhaps the two superpowers were more similar than they like to believe, I do think that the US victory over the USSR was a good thing - and in general, I consider the US a positive influence in the world.

Only that it operates under failed premisses - face it - external intervention is too risk and expensive - in all ways something can be expensive - for someone to really do it for graceful selfless kindness. Every time someone goes out his way to sniff some other's people's business, there is something going on.

Does this means that I am against helping people in need (let's not discuss here what being in need actually signify)? Hell, no. But a force commited to a nation will always - always - be useless to another nation. Machiavel said that half a millenia ago, and it's still as true now as it was back then.

While there is no force that is commited to no nation, but only to the world as a whole, frontiers forgoten, foreign help will always be "alien" help, and have too many skeletons in it's closet, skeletons that we probably will only see clearly through the lens of history. And the sincere good will that I believe is present in the people (not in the government) of the US is powerless to change this crude fact.

I don't trust these kinds of forces, as a principle.

So sorry, Uncle Sam, but hell is filled with good intentions.

Regards .

 

[andrewgprv]

From what I know (or atleast learned), the US was fighting communism. Although, eyrei said in the debate that it was peasants and they weren't communist. So, what was the war about anyway? (I'm kind of confused about this, though). All I know is that, in the 80's, the US wanted to spread democracy and fight communism.

The US cares about maintaining it's superpower status and influence over weaker nations. It is basically post WW2 imperialism. The Cold War was less about communism vs. democracy and more about America's imperial influences conflicting with Russia's imperial influences, and a struggle to become the world's sole super-power.

 

[eyrei]

Hehehe. When I first saw this thread, I thought it referred to the city I was born, the beautiful city of Salvador, Bahia in the northeast of Brazil.

Anyway, coming from a country which suffered a dictatorship because of these silly ideological conflicts, I can relate with the people of El Salvador. It's true that in the period under which I lived the military dictatorship, I was too young to really have a clue of what was going on (I didn't had even ten years when it ended), but I have close relatives who had to endure it all, and boy, some things aren't easy to forget.

The only difference between me and Eyrey is that I didn't "loose" my trust in the USA, because I never had it. And please, don't get me wrong - while I think that this sort of stories shows that perhaps the two superpowers were more similar than they like to believe, I do think that the US victory over the USSR was a good thing - and in general, I consider the US a positive influence in the world.

Only that it operates under failed premisses - face it - external intervention is too risk and expensive - in all ways something can be expensive - for someone to really do it for graceful selfless kindness. Every time someone goes out his way to sniff some other's people's business, there is something going on.

Does this means that I am against helping people in need (let's not discuss here what being in need actually signify)? Hell, no. But a force commited to a nation will always - always - be useless to another nation. Machiavel said that half a millenia ago, and it's still as true now as it was back then.

While there is no force that is commited to no nation, but only to the world as a whole, frontiers forgoten, foreign help will always be "alien" help, and have too many skeletons in it's closet, skeletons that we probably will only see clearly through the lens of history. And the sincere good will that I believe is present in the people (not in the government) of the US is powerless to change this crude fact.

I don't trust these kinds of forces, as a principle.

So sorry, Uncle Sam, but hell is filled with good intentions.

Regards .

I must admit, it was a strange thing for me, to be able to talk to people who had lived through such a civil war. They have a statue, on the way to San Salvador from the airport. It is constructed out of melted pistols...El Salvador has come a long way since the 80s, but these wounds will not heal for a long time, I think. My sister-in-law's family was split by this war, as part held positions in the military and part supported the rebellion. In many ways it was a clash of the liberals against the conservatives, regarding traditional values, but the actual bloodshed was caused by evil men, both in El Salvador and in the USA.

Many of the people I spoke with saw the USA in much the same way as you do, I think. They see a nation that is sometimes a good influence on the world, and sometimes the harbinger of horrors.

 

[jack merchant]

From what I know (or atleast learned), the US was fighting communism. Although, eyrei said in the debate that it was peasants and they weren't communist. So, what was the war about anyway? (I'm kind of confused about this, though). All I know is that, in the 80's, the US wanted to spread democracy and fight communism.

Other than rhetorically, they weren't actually interested in spreading democracy at all - every military dictatorship posing as anticommunist automatically was labelled democratic (Ronald Reagan infamously compared those drug-smuggling, raping and village-burning former henchmen of the dictator Somoza known as the Contras in Nicaragua to the Founding Fathers). Which made it quite attractive for any dictatorship facing opposition and insurrection to label those as 'communist', thus qualifying for American money, guns and training assistance for counterinsurrection techniques, aka torture. Ironically, American support for those dictatorships (in Guatemala, Nicaragua, El Salvador and several South American countries) tended to drive rebels right into the arms of Moscow, who would help them when nobody else would.

What made it more easy for those dictatorships to portray the opposition as communist is because the most common source for discontent and revolt tended to be inequality, particularly with regard to land ownership but also often of the racial variety. If people were clamouring for land reform, they must be communists, right ?

This, I think, has been one of the great strategic mistakes of the Cold War. Western support for dictatorships (and yes I say Western - though the US provided most of the material assistance, its allies were far from blameless. Thatcher was a great friend to Pinochet, and most European countries helped prop up Mobutu in the Congo) in the name of anticommunism has destroyed the trust Third World countries might otherwise have had in us. But really, it was as Eyrei points out, worse than a mistake. It was a crime, and many thousands of people are dead on account of it.

 

[zjl56]

Well, I support your observations, this really happened.

Things are even worse, things like that still happen today, and there are many things going on that find not much place in the media.

The ethnic cleansing in the Darfur area of Sudan e.g. is much more in the news in Europe than it is in the US, as we just found out and debated in the CFC-Chat.

Yes I think we the U.S should go into Sudan to stop the suffering. But the international community did not take well to us trying to help the Iraqis.

 

[andrewgprv]

Yes I think we the U.S should go into Sudan to stop the suffering. But the international community did not take well to us trying to help the Iraqis.

Yes we all know how well off the Iraqis are right now...

 

[Longasc]

I think it is not up to the US to intervene there. The United States are no World Police, even if they are needed when the United Nations fail, what they usually do (IMO). It should be up to the United Nations, but I doubt the effectiviness of the UN.

But I want also to express my doubt that Bush invaded Iraq to help the poor Iraqis. His father let them down after the first Gulf War, the Iraqi Uprising was stopped by Saddams troops.

There were other reasons to attack Iraq, but helping the Iraqis is a VERY idealistic view. You are right that nobody really supported the US in Iraq. Now they found no weapons of mass destruction down there, but some OIL and even more not so thankful Iraqi people.

 

[Chieftess]

I knew this thread would deviate from the intended topic quickly...

I'm not sure why the US (or any other country for that matter) would attack another country just so that they give a resource to them... In the case of Iraq, wasn't it to help Iraq set up its' infrastructure?